What do Ferrari have that McLaren don't?
Discussion
RYH64E said:
I keep hearing this, but Red Bull seem to be competitive with a customer version of the pretty poor Renault unit. I'd put money on Red Bull winning a championsip with a customer engine before McLaren win with a works Honda engine.
What's poor about the Renault unit? It seems on par with the Ferrari since the last major update.You can't really use the Renault team as a benchmark as they're running effectively a 2015 car designed for a different engine that they've chopped about to get their engine in.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
charltjr said:
Fairly negative opening statement there. McLaren F1 are "whoring themselves" to Honda because Mercedes will never give a customer team engine parity with the works team, so McLaren decided that they needed to be a works team themselves.
How many Mercedes customer teams have they beaten so far?McLaren have gone all-in with Honda in an effort to win. Taking the easier route of remaining a Mercedes customer team would have seen them never finishing higher than second. A team like McLaren doesn't exist to settle for second if they think they have an opportunity to win. They are just playing a longer game with Honda.
Remember that Honda started their engine programme three years after Mercedes did, and today a McLaren beat all the customer Mercedes teams in the US GP.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Unfortunately they finished behind,
I kinda like Mercedes' AMG range of cars. Quite fond of the cars that Ferrari build when they're not manufacturing flags too. Don't drink Red a Bull though. - One of the dullest car builders on this planet (Mercedes)
- A soft drink manufacturer (Red Bull), and
- A seller of flags and T-shirts (Ferrari).
thegreenhell said:
How many Mercedes customer teams have beaten the works team so far?
McLaren have gone all-in with Honda in an effort to win. Taking the easier route of remaining a Mercedes customer team would have seen them never finishing higher than second. A team like McLaren doesn't exist to settle for second if they think they have an opportunity to win. They are just playing a longer game with Honda.
Remember that Honda started their engine programme three years after Mercedes did, and today a McLaren beat all the customer Mercedes teams in the US GP.
Mods alert. Sensible post. No room for that on this thread....McLaren have gone all-in with Honda in an effort to win. Taking the easier route of remaining a Mercedes customer team would have seen them never finishing higher than second. A team like McLaren doesn't exist to settle for second if they think they have an opportunity to win. They are just playing a longer game with Honda.
Remember that Honda started their engine programme three years after Mercedes did, and today a McLaren beat all the customer Mercedes teams in the US GP.
I've been a McLaren fan since the start of Phase 4, some weeks ago now. I started in 1966 with Lotus, moved onto Brabham before settling for McL.
The criticism of any racing team that has been at the top and then suffers is a bit unfair. All teams have gone through such phases.
From a fan's point of view, I'm glad they went with Honda rather than settling for a customer engine. It's not been the easiest few years but I anticipate that 2017 might offer them a chance to come back, at least to third in the table, perhaps fighting with Ferrari.
McLaren, Williams and Ferrari are the backbone of the sport, and to me it remains a sport. I follow a rugby team, seeing them play away as well as home, and I've gone through ups and downs. They haven't won a match this season, despite coming fourth last year, but that's sport for you.
I seem to be in a minority by supporting a team rather than a driver, but to me it is fun. Twice the chances of a result.
Over the years I've seen favouritism and resentment polluting the sport via those in charge. I've seen outrageous cheating that could have resulted in serious injury to those who were not complicit in the dangerous activity, and unprecedented fines for what many feel was resentment.
The sport's a soap opera. Hopefully McL will be back at the top or thereabouts. But one thin that my 50 years as a supporter of the sport has shown me is that no one outside the inner circle really knows what's going on, and even they are confused.
Ron Dennis and Frank Williams - they are in the sport for their own reasons but they've been major players all the time I've been a nerd. I hope they take it to Merc and Ferrari in 2017.
The criticism of any racing team that has been at the top and then suffers is a bit unfair. All teams have gone through such phases.
From a fan's point of view, I'm glad they went with Honda rather than settling for a customer engine. It's not been the easiest few years but I anticipate that 2017 might offer them a chance to come back, at least to third in the table, perhaps fighting with Ferrari.
McLaren, Williams and Ferrari are the backbone of the sport, and to me it remains a sport. I follow a rugby team, seeing them play away as well as home, and I've gone through ups and downs. They haven't won a match this season, despite coming fourth last year, but that's sport for you.
I seem to be in a minority by supporting a team rather than a driver, but to me it is fun. Twice the chances of a result.
Over the years I've seen favouritism and resentment polluting the sport via those in charge. I've seen outrageous cheating that could have resulted in serious injury to those who were not complicit in the dangerous activity, and unprecedented fines for what many feel was resentment.
The sport's a soap opera. Hopefully McL will be back at the top or thereabouts. But one thin that my 50 years as a supporter of the sport has shown me is that no one outside the inner circle really knows what's going on, and even they are confused.
Ron Dennis and Frank Williams - they are in the sport for their own reasons but they've been major players all the time I've been a nerd. I hope they take it to Merc and Ferrari in 2017.
FIAT span off Ferrari as a separate company some time ago, no FIAT money for Ferrari unless as a sponsor, they even mentioned bring Alfa Romeo back into F1. Ferrari are much bigger than McLaren, have their own engine and possibly still have the ear of the FIA. They also get paid more by F1.
http://damcdn.autosport.com/editorial/0c8e80ce668b...
Picking up $70M just for being called ferrari helps. Thats your whole engine budget right there.
nothing to do with chrysler they're broke as f
k and were bought by fiat for 75p probably but fiat aren't poor, italy props up it's domestic manufacturing and ferrari is a close second to catholism in italy.
Picking up $70M just for being called ferrari helps. Thats your whole engine budget right there.
nothing to do with chrysler they're broke as f
k and were bought by fiat for 75p probably but fiat aren't poor, italy props up it's domestic manufacturing and ferrari is a close second to catholism in italy.hairyben said:
http://damcdn.autosport.com/editorial/0c8e80ce668b...
Picking up $70M just for being called ferrari helps. Thats your whole engine budget right there.
Plus the huge Philip Morris money. Not Marlboro, nope, definitely not Marlboro. Picking up $70M just for being called ferrari helps. Thats your whole engine budget right there.
The McLaren/Honda gestation period has been very difficult and only now is it starting to come together. It's still slightly down on power and I don't think it's a very driveable engine even now, but part of the problem (both for McLaren and Honda) is that they only have the one team - so no one outside of the paddock really knows where either the chassis or the engine really stand. The rest of the teams know perfectly well where the car is because they'll have been studying the GPS data from each session all year...
According to Joe Saward it looks as though BP are going to be the title sponsor of Maclaren.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
Smollet said:
According to Joe Saward it looks as though BP are going to be the title sponsor of Maclaren.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
i would hope Honda were involved in this, lubricants and fuel can make a huge difference in performance.https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
Smollet said:
According to Joe Saward it looks as though BP are going to be the title sponsor of Maclaren.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
I can see any mention in that article of BP being the title sponsor.https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
Smollet said:
According to Joe Saward it looks as though BP are going to be the title sponsor of Maclaren.
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
Surely his blog about fuel being "performance critical" is wrong? My understanding is that F1 regulations define fuel incredibly tightly so that the chance of one team getting more energy per kg than another is very small indeed.https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/mclaren...
PhillipM said:
What's poor about the Renault unit? It seems on par with the Ferrari since the last major update.
You can't really use the Renault team as a benchmark as they're running effectively a 2015 car designed for a different engine that they've chopped about to get their engine in.
After the USA race I'm sure Carlos Sainz commented, in reference to his battle with Alonso, how well they had done to get 6th considering they were easily passed on the straight by the second worst engine - I assume this means he thinks either the Renault is the worst or his is the worst.You can't really use the Renault team as a benchmark as they're running effectively a 2015 car designed for a different engine that they've chopped about to get their engine in.
- As I type this I realise he probably meant his was worst - would be pretty rude to talk about Renault like that.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Surely his blog about fuel being "performance critical" is wrong? My understanding is that F1 regulations define fuel incredibly tightly so that the chance of one team getting more energy per kg than another is very small indeed.
Quite the opposite, the fuel is a very high performance component. When McLaren ran the Mercedes engine they were the only team not to use Petronas fuel and lubricants, and it showed. Ozzie Osmond said:
Surely his blog about fuel being "performance critical" is wrong? My understanding is that F1 regulations define fuel incredibly tightly so that the chance of one team getting more energy per kg than another is very small indeed.
Lubricants can make a huge difference too.Mr_Thyroid said:
PhillipM said:
What's poor about the Renault unit? It seems on par with the Ferrari since the last major update.
You can't really use the Renault team as a benchmark as they're running effectively a 2015 car designed for a different engine that they've chopped about to get their engine in.
After the USA race I'm sure Carlos Sainz commented, in reference to his battle with Alonso, how well they had done to get 6th considering they were easily passed on the straight by the second worst engine - I assume this means he thinks either the Renault is the worst or his is the worst.You can't really use the Renault team as a benchmark as they're running effectively a 2015 car designed for a different engine that they've chopped about to get their engine in.
- As I type this I realise he probably meant his was worst - would be pretty rude to talk about Renault like that.
RYH64E said:
I keep hearing this, but Red Bull seem to be competitive with a customer version of the pretty poor Renault unit. I'd put money on Red Bull winning a championsip with a customer engine before McLaren win with a works Honda engine.
I agree with this sentiment, much as it greaves me to think it.I think that the problem with both McLaren and Ferrari is management of resources. Both teams have the necessary funding but suffer from "Too many cooks" syndrome and so losing focus on what actually needs to be done to win a race this weekend Vs what needs to be done to win a championship in 2 years time.
Managing that task is what Brawn achieved for Mercedes. McLaren's biggest mistake was letting Newey walk. Believing that no one person is bigger than than the team was dumb. They have allowed plenty of other talented people to leave since and so keep making the same mistake.
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