2017 F1 Regulations - Who will get it right?

[PhillipM]

The main thing will be the wider tyres + extra heat they should be able to take means the drivers can push the car hard for a lot longer before they have to preserve the tyres in a fight.

[rubystone]

PhillipM said:

The main thing will be the wider tyres + extra heat they should be able to take means the drivers can push the car hard for a lot longer before they have to preserve the tyres in a fight.

I would have thought that it's the compound that determines the longevity of the tyre rather then its width?

[Mr_Thyroid]

rubystone said:

PhillipM said:

The main thing will be the wider tyres + extra heat they should be able to take means the drivers can push the car hard for a lot longer before they have to preserve the tyres in a fight.

I would have thought that it's the compound that determines the longevity of the tyre rather then its width?

I think the width helps determine which compounds can be used - wider tyres can be softer.

But I also thought it was surface heat that caused problems with the pirellis i.e. sliding and spinning causing sudden surface heat leading to degradation. Although the extra grip the additional width offers should reduce this a bit I doubt it's going to be a game changer.

[PhillipM]

rubystone said:

I would have thought that it's the compound that determines the longevity of the tyre rather then its width?

Heat wise you've got a lot more area and mass to reduce the contact patch stress and soak extra heat that's generated, even with higher expected aero loads.

[bunglesprout]

I have read somewhere in the last few days that the rumour is that Red Bull have something special for next year. I think it will be between RB and Merc, with McLaren improving further and getting regular podiums and possibly sneak a win. I fear Ferrari will spiral further down before they improve, Vettel will jump ship for McLaren for 2018 with Ferrari taking Sainz from TR.

On the issue of whether they 'look' faster going another 10mph , I agree it is difficult to see the difference on TV. However, anything that makes them more physically challenging for the driver should be welcomed. I want to see the drivers absolutely knackered and on the verge of collapse when they get out the cars at the end of a race, or struggling during the race to hang on to them.

[VolvoT5]

Red Bull and Mercedes, although Red Bull are still relying on Renault to make a decent step on the engine as well.

I think the slow motion car crash at Ferrari will continue. I hope I am wrong but I just cannot see them getting it right what with all the instability they have had this year. Same for McLaren - just don't see the signs they are going to be front runners any time soon because despite their claims that chassis is just as much of a problem as the Honda engine.

I'm not convinced this regulation change will improve the racing. I mean surely higher down force means more of the 'dirty air' effect and when you combine that with wider cars it will be very hard to race wheel to wheel. I read somewhere that the new Pirelli tyres will have a wear 'cliff' built into them as well - so going back to 2012/13 style where one moment a car was reasonably competitive and the next moment it was 5 seconds off the pace.

The engine rules will take them down to 4 per season so managing engines will be the next issue everyone is banging on about.

The racing needs to be closer and better... the cars don't need to be faster to do that as some of the wet/dry races demonstrate.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Saturday 29th October 08:12

[rdjohn]

Vaud said:

I'm not sure about this. As a bystander it's very hard to tell 5-10mph increase in corner speed. Each driver will have a style, and ironically a well planted car will look slower vs a faster car that is running a little "wild"?

And to add to your point, I still think we will still see the fastest race lap some 5 seconds slower than qualifying, like COTA, last week.

Mercedes may have 1000bhp to get pole, but probably only ever use 800 of them in the race. I get "winning in the slowest time" but the current regs take it to an extreme.

Things could be so much better, at much less cost. The primary aim of the change in the regs was to improve overtaking. Big side Venturis; smaller wings and diffuser. That has been completely lost, and again we will be reliant on teams unlocking the vagaries of Pirelli rubber and rationing fuel.

[thegreenhell]

I think it's worth reposting this Nigel Roebuck link in here

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/big-q...

[EDLT]

thegreenhell said:

I think it's worth reposting this Nigel Roebuck link in here

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/big-q...

Do the current hybrid engines really make more power than the old V10s?

I think the increased drag from more aero will make the DRS zones even more important, assuming the drivers can get close enough. DRS passes are usually pretty dull things to watch.

[Megaflow]

EDLT said:

thegreenhell said:

I think it's worth reposting this Nigel Roebuck link in here

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/big-q...

Do the current hybrid engines really make more power than the old V10s?

I think the increased drag from more aero will make the DRS zones even more important, assuming the drivers can get close enough. DRS passes are usually pretty dull things to watch.

If the stories are to be believed then a top flight V10 made ~950bhp in race trim, and there were a couple of 1000bhp qualifying specials.

Rumour has it Mercedes are running ~900bhp in race mode and ~1000bhp in qualifying.

[EDLT]

Megaflow said:

EDLT said:

thegreenhell said:

I think it's worth reposting this Nigel Roebuck link in here

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/big-q...

Do the current hybrid engines really make more power than the old V10s?

I think the increased drag from more aero will make the DRS zones even more important, assuming the drivers can get close enough. DRS passes are usually pretty dull things to watch.

If the stories are to be believed then a top flight V10 made ~950bhp in race trim, and there were a couple of 1000bhp qualifying specials.

Rumour has it Mercedes are running ~900bhp in race mode and ~1000bhp in qualifying.

I was under the impression that the cars had around 750hp. They certainly don't look like they have 1000hp and no traction control, especially when you consider the increased torque they must have from a lower revving turbo charged engine + electric motor.

[Derek Smith]

A quote from the linked James Allan blog:

As Lewis Hamilton puts it, “As soon as we’ve done the start, we slow down. Generally we’re not pushing 100% like they used to. Back in the day it was a more extreme race – a sprint – but F1 is not like that any more. It’s about conserving tyres and fuel and batteries, and that’s not what people want to see…”

[glazbagun]

Derek Smith said:

A quote from the linked James Allan blog:

As Lewis Hamilton puts it, “As soon as we’ve done the start, we slow down. Generally we’re not pushing 100% like they used to. Back in the day it was a more extreme race – a sprint – but F1 is not like that any more. It’s about conserving tyres and fuel and batteries, and that’s not what people want to see…”

From an old Autosport article, I remember Alonso saying similar:

"I am not saying current cars are easier to drive, but they certainly are from a physical point of view or in finding the car's true limit.

"That's because before, when you were attacking a turn, the speed mid-turn was so high that you really had to trust your car, trust that it would handle it. With less grip, it's easier to find the grip's limit.

"Before, after 10 laps you had to have a two-hour massage, while now you can drive 150 laps and barely sweat by the end."


... Which would to me indicate that the new cars will have much higher cornering speeds and separate the men from the boys both in car design and driving ability. Will be interesting to see how the new crop find it. Will RB still have the services of Newey, or is he pretty much on gardening leave these days?

Edited by glazbagun on Sunday 30th October 15:58

[Crafty_]

...And if you watch the Tony Brooks interviews he says the exact same thing about his era - make sure you get to the finish line... some things don't change.

We will have to see what next year brings, expect a revision of the rules for 2018 to settle everything down.Of course by then we'll have the superdooper "this will solve everything" halos....

I suspect that Red Bull will be out front, Merc the best of the rest (most of the time), Ferrari having flashes of brilliance but on the whole struggling. I think Mclaren are the dark horse and could well have several podiums next year.

I am intrigued to see if LM do bring Brawn in to the equation somehow. Thats going to be very interesting if it happens...

[Megaflow]

EDLT said:

Megaflow said:

EDLT said:

thegreenhell said:

I think it's worth reposting this Nigel Roebuck link in here

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/big-q...

Do the current hybrid engines really make more power than the old V10s?

I think the increased drag from more aero will make the DRS zones even more important, assuming the drivers can get close enough. DRS passes are usually pretty dull things to watch.

If the stories are to be believed then a top flight V10 made ~950bhp in race trim, and there were a couple of 1000bhp qualifying specials.

Rumour has it Mercedes are running ~900bhp in race mode and ~1000bhp in qualifying.

I was under the impression that the cars had around 750hp. They certainly don't look like they have 1000hp and no traction control, especially when you consider the increased torque they must have from a lower revving turbo charged engine + electric motor.

Mercedes were admitting to 900bhp at the start of the season.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/14724923/merce...

Also, 1000bhp does have to mean it looks hard to drive and out of control. Porsche admit to 900bhp from the 919 Hybrid, and that doesn't look like and out of control monster either.

[anonymous-user]

McLaren are probably one of the 130% teams, but they'll end up 101%.

[Dr Z]

fortysixandtwo said:

McLaren are probably one of the 130% teams, but they'll end up 101%.

Harsh!

---

Was intrigued by the reported lap times for Barcelona and the downforce improvements...we have some noisy data fed to us by the FIA in the form of the best qualifying speeds registered at finish line and at the speed trap from last year at Barcelona. Also the first sector timing. Plotting the average of the two drivers and ordering them from left to right, smallest to largest speed difference:



The works Merc car is one of the slowest accelerating along the straight powered by the Merc engine, but also the quickest in S1...it’s an interesting snapshot into the kind of downforce/drag that the teams were pushing in 2015 relative to the power they had.

The Toro Rosso appears to be the slowest accelerating car and McLaren the fastest, in terms of the difference in speeds at the finish line, and the speed trap which is around 600 metres further along the track. The Renault, Honda and Manor's old Ferrari engine were competing for the worst engine on the grid but interesting to see such extremes in acceleration. Obviously, a big factor in all of this, is the overall drag of the cars themselves, partly caused by the amount of downforce produced by the cars.

I find it curious that the Williams car, had a slightly higher finish line speed than the Merc but does not keep that speed gain at the speed trap, as one would expect a lower drag car to...

Plotting the best first sector times in qualifying against this speed delta, we could get an idea of which team was running compromised by lower downforce due to the lack of power...



Manor is off the scale, sorry! Too slow. Manor and McLaren are obvious due to extra context we have, but it is clear that the McLaren was the quickest accelerating car due to reduced drag and downforce because it was also the second slowest in terms of the sector times. Despite its top speed only being around 5 km/h slower than the fastest car around that sector…a lot has changed since then for McLaren. They brought the short nose afterwards and, Force India introduced their B-spec car afterwards too. This is how it looked in 2016:





That Mercedes is pushing some serious downforce. Force India car comes the close to matching the finish line speed (also influenced by the exit speed out of the final corner in S3) and trap speed but still 3 tenths off the works car in overall sector time.

McLaren and Toro Rosso at the complete opposite ends of the spectrum compared to 2015.

IMO, Manor, McLaren, Lotus/Renault all have a big chance of leaping ahead...the latter two by way of the bigger budgets they have. Red Bull/Toro Rosso will be interesting. At the start of the current regulations, RB were ahead but TR really came on strong last year and even earlier this year with a decent engine (now struggling due to lack of development on that front). I can see TR being the dark horse here, if they can show the kind of form they are showing now...although RB were quicker out of the blocks at the dawn of the current regs.

The mid field teams seem to take a bit more time to get going, but out of the Mercedes powered cars, Williams also have a chance of being one of the teams that are finding big downforce increases, as they have been working on the 2017 car a while longer than some others.

Edited by Dr Z on Tuesday 1st November 14:30

[Dr Z]

Pat Symonds talks for the first half an hour of this motorsport mag podcast on the 2017 cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYLA7UQdzJ4

Sacrificing this year's development to focus on next year...could they put in a performance like 2014?

[HustleRussell]

Dr Z said:

Pat Symonds talks for the first half an hour of this motorsport mag podcast on the 2017 cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYLA7UQdzJ4

Sacrificing this year's development to focus on next year...could they put in a performance like 2014?

Given how pissed off the old folk were when young Max won a race, could you imagine the conflict on here if Lance Stroll started winning?

[thegreenhell]

Dr Z said:

Sacrificing this year's development to focus on next year...could they put in a performance like 2014?

The heady days of podiums in fewer than half the races and no wins...