Is Max Verstappen as good as Senna

[anonymous-user]

none of those guys you mention have been hyped as much or come close to showing the ability Max is showing.

[PugwasHDJ80]

untakenname said:

Vettel's performance in 2012 in Brazil was so much better imo, to come back from last to nearly winning (if the pit stop had gone to plan).

BUttons performance in Canada was better

5 stops, 2 crashes, went from last to first, overtaking Vettel on the final lap to win, in the wet.

don't think i'll ever see a better race

[Trabi601]

jsf said:

none of those guys you mention have been hyped as much or come close to showing the ability Max is showing.

None of them has had the 2nd best car on the grid in their rookie season, either.

All of them were hailed as future WDCs on the showing of a handful of races.

I may well be wrong, but I just don't get the hype surrounding a few decent performances. Especially when he's been given a significantly better tool than most drivers get so early in their career. He wasn't significantly better than Sainz last season - I recall head to head, when both cars finished, it was about evens. He just lucked into a competitive drive this season as Red Bull were securing their investment before anyone else took a chance on him. Even if you look at this season, the balance of head to head results lies in favour of Ricciardo. Take out the engineered win and it's even more biased towards Ricciardo, too.

[anonymous-user]

Trabi601 said:

jsf said:

none of those guys you mention have been hyped as much or come close to showing the ability Max is showing.

None of them has had the 2nd best car on the grid in their rookie season, either.

Neither has Max, this is his 2nd season in F1.

[Trabi601]

jsf said:

Trabi601 said:

jsf said:

none of those guys you mention have been hyped as much or come close to showing the ability Max is showing.

None of them has had the 2nd best car on the grid in their rookie season, either.

Neither has Max, this is his 2nd season in F1.

My mistake. Point is still valid. He's been dropped into a very competitive car (vs. everyone bar Mercedes) at a very early stage and is massively over-hyped.

[davepoth]

Trabi601 said:

My mistake. Point is still valid. He's been dropped into a very competitive car (vs. everyone bar Mercedes) at a very early stage and is massively over-hyped.

One swallow doesn't make a summer, as they say. But it was a very good piece of driving in conditions that made drivers more important than machinery.

[LDN]

I wouldn't say he's lucked into anything. He deserves to be there... the powers that be believe in him.

Aside from anything; he does seem to have a little something extra and I look forward to seeing him evolve.

[heebeegeetee]

Trabi601 said:

My mistake. Point is still valid. He's been dropped into a very competitive car (vs. everyone bar Mercedes) at a very early stage and is massively over-hyped.

I'm sure you're right, and Horner and Helmut etc don't in fact know what they're doing and they've just picked a kid up and dropped him into the car.

Nowt to do with talent at all, just luck.

Dear god.

I've been watching F1 (and a lot of other racing in the past) and I thought Max's drive was utterly fantastic. Far too soon to tell if he's the next Senna but that drive was the best I've seen since I stood at the bottom of the Craner Curves and watched Senna do what he did.

A 19 year old kid showing the established stars that they were doing it all wrong and couldn't see the best racing line, and that includes Rosberg, the champion elect.

The rain sorts the men from the boys and on that day he was the man and everyone else excpet Hamilton looked like has-beens. An incredible performance.

[bobbo89]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

BUttons performance in Canada was better

5 stops, 2 crashes, went from last to first, overtaking Vettel on the final lap to win, in the wet.

don't think i'll ever see a better race

It was that race that got me back into F1 and has had me hooked since, still waiting to see a race like that again and almost had it in Brazil

[NRS]

Trabi601 said:

Even if you look at this season, the balance of head to head results lies in favour of Ricciardo. Take out the engineered win and it's even more biased towards Ricciardo, too.

Is that actual results, or the championship table?

[Trabi601]

NRS said:

Trabi601 said:

Even if you look at this season, the balance of head to head results lies in favour of Ricciardo. Take out the engineered win and it's even more biased towards Ricciardo, too.

Is that actual results, or the championship table?

From a quick glance at the wiki page for this season, it was Ricciardo by a couple of races in a head to head where both finished.

[anonymous-user]

Trabi601 said:

One season. A handful of good races, including one freak / engineered win (that was Ricciardo's race).

I think people need to calm down - there have been many over-hyped drivers over recent years - Bottas, Groesjean, Magnussen, it really wouldn't surprise me if Verstappen and Vandoorne go the same way.

Really, you'd put them up there with Verstappen? I think he's the man to watch right now, it could all change for next year but there's no doubt he's one of the most exciting talents for a long time. Comparisons with Senna, Schumacher etc are pointless. Different era of racing completely.

[sparta6]

Having had his spin, going from plum last to 4th was pretty impressive today. Flat spotted tyres and passing Ricciardo. A good days work

[Blue62]

Verstappen is the real deal, no point in comparing him to Senna it's a pointless exercise as we all know, better to focus on your favourites and mine retired today. Max will be a multiple WC.

[SeeFive]

Good natural talent. Still a lot of refinement necessary in his decision making leading to inconsistency. Ignoring his dangerous driving incidents which they have had to create new rules to curb... Examples of issues...

Team debut win in Spain, leading to widespread adulation... Well, not from Danny admittedly, but we generally thought it a good performance for weekend 1. Two weeks later, 3 (yes three) crashes at the Monaco weekend (added to another shunt the previous year). Made me wonder if he either was quick with a precision problem, or just had a learning problem. One thing for sure, Monaco has given him a problem on both his visits, which although a st track for spectators, really tests a driver. He still has not passed that test which is a mandatory to be spoken about in the same breath as the greats.

Really good drive but hailed (unrealistically given Monaco issues IMO) as the new Senna in a wet Brazil. Sure enough, 2 weeks later, schoolboy spin in T1 Abu Dhabi. Despite the wet gussetted adulation for him passing all the cars that qualified slower than him, he could arguably have finished better if he hadn't made the initial error and screwed the plan A strategy.

He has got away with quite a few other potential problems this year due to the evasive action of other drivers. Kimi in Belgium etc... He's hot, very hot - but not the real deal yet. Lacks the head of a truly great driver, but he may get it as his experience (or fear) grows. He could be really good (another Senna? why limit him to just that???) in the future or he could be yet another DeCesaris.

Too early to tell IMO. But I for one am glad he is doing what he is, and assume / hope that he will not go down the DeCesaris route.

[heebeegeetee]

SeeFive said:

Good natural talent. Still a lot of refinement necessary in his decision making leading to inconsistency. Ignoring his dangerous driving incidents which they have had to create new rules to curb... Examples of issues...

Team debut win in Spain, leading to widespread adulation... Well, not from Danny admittedly, but we generally thought it a good performance for weekend 1. Two weeks later, 3 (yes three) crashes at the Monaco weekend (added to another shunt the previous year). Made me wonder if he either was quick with a precision problem, or just had a learning problem. One thing for sure, Monaco has given him a problem on both his visits, which although a st track for spectators, really tests a driver. He still has not passed that test which is a mandatory to be spoken about in the same breath as the greats.

Really good drive but hailed (unrealistically given Monaco issues IMO) as the new Senna in a wet Brazil. Sure enough, 2 weeks later, schoolboy spin in T1 Abu Dhabi. Despite the wet gussetted adulation for him passing all the cars that qualified slower than him, he could arguably have finished better if he hadn't made the initial error and screwed the plan A strategy.

He has got away with quite a few other potential problems this year due to the evasive action of other drivers. Kimi in Belgium etc... He's hot, very hot - but not the real deal yet. Lacks the head of a truly great driver, but he may get it as his experience (or fear) grows. He could be really good (another Senna? why limit him to just that???) in the future or he could be yet another DeCesaris.

Too early to tell IMO. But I for one am glad he is doing what he is, and assume / hope that he will not go down the DeCesaris route.

I don't recall De Cesaris showing one iota of Max's potential, nor anybody raving about him. Andrea crash every time he got in the car.

[SeeFive]

heebeegeetee said:

I don't recall De Cesaris showing one iota of Max's potential, nor anybody raving about him. Andrea crash every time he got in the car.

There have been so many "next great drivers" over the years based on limited showing in a mass of inconsistency. Probably the reason you didn't see the people ranting about Andrea's early days was that James Hunt was doing most of the TV work.

De crasheris, Alboreto, it would be too boring to name them all right through to the latest crop (e.g., Bottas?) who put in a couple of good races / moves and the world frothed over. They got it right with Senna and Schumacher and a few others, but at present Max to me is just exciting, quick and brave. Good potential, (yes, seemingly better than ADC and Bottas) but very incomplete. I look forward to seeing the finished article.

Max has shown some brilliance in his exciting attacking style, but I maintain that he has shown a level of inconsistency and clumsiness of many of the the potential greats who turned out to be carbon fibre splintering journeymen before. And mostly at the circuit where the true greats show their worth by keeping it out of the barrier more often than not, rather than the other way around for the "flat out or crash" brigade.

[NRS]

SeeFive said:

heebeegeetee said:

I don't recall De Cesaris showing one iota of Max's potential, nor anybody raving about him. Andrea crash every time he got in the car.

There have been so many "next great drivers" over the years based on limited showing in a mass of inconsistency. Probably the reason you didn't see the people ranting about Andrea's early days was that James Hunt was doing most of the TV work.

De crasheris, Alboreto, it would be too boring to name them all right through to the latest crop (e.g., Bottas?) who put in a couple of good races / moves and the world frothed over. They got it right with Senna and Schumacher and a few others, but at present Max to me is just exciting, quick and brave. Good potential, (yes, seemingly better than ADC and Bottas) but very incomplete. I look forward to seeing the finished article.

Max has shown some brilliance in his exciting attacking style, but I maintain that he has shown a level of inconsistency and clumsiness of many of the the potential greats who turned out to be carbon fibre splintering journeymen before. And mostly at the circuit where the true greats show their worth by keeping it out of the barrier more often than not, rather than the other way around for the "flat out or crash" brigade.

To me he is very much like Hamilton when he first appeared on the scene. I think he is generally a step above the talent of most/ all new drivers we have seen recently, but he still needs time to develop and gain experience. In the same way many on here said Hamilton was very quick but needed to learn to not try and overtake absolutely everything straight away then Max has to learn the same. It will likely just take time, the same as Hamilton did. So it will lead to him being a little less exciting in the future, but a little more consistent in terms of finishing.

Comparisons to drivers like Bottas for example are not really correct in my view - Bottas has never really shown the same style of racing that Max has in terms of wheel to wheel racing. Someone like Sainz might be a better comparison to Bottas - Sainz was quick and got similar results to Max, but the reason Max got the RB seat was because there is very few drivers who can race wheel to wheel and pass others like Max can. Max is faster in a race, but just needs the consistency in terms of making the decision on when to attack at the right time - which is much easier to learn than being conservative and a bit slower going to attack full on. Sainz to me would be a bit like Rosberg - very quick and consistent but if he catches traffic it will slow him down a lot more than it would slow Max/Hamilton down.

I too think a bit much was made of his drive in Brazil, but I have little double he will be the next Hamilton.

[SeeFive]

NRS said:

To me he is very much like Hamilton when he first appeared on the scene. I think he is generally a step above the talent of most/ all new drivers we have seen recently, but he still needs time to develop and gain experience. In the same way many on here said Hamilton was very quick but needed to learn to not try and overtake absolutely everything straight away then Max has to learn the same. It will likely just take time, the same as Hamilton did. So it will lead to him being a little less exciting in the future, but a little more consistent in terms of finishing.

Comparisons to drivers like Bottas for example are not really correct in my view - Bottas has never really shown the same style of racing that Max has in terms of wheel to wheel racing. Someone like Sainz might be a better comparison to Bottas - Sainz was quick and got similar results to Max, but the reason Max got the RB seat was because there is very few drivers who can race wheel to wheel and pass others like Max can. Max is faster in a race, but just needs the consistency in terms of making the decision on when to attack at the right time - which is much easier to learn than being conservative and a bit slower going to attack full on. Sainz to me would be a bit like Rosberg - very quick and consistent but if he catches traffic it will slow him down a lot more than it would slow Max/Hamilton down.

I too think a bit much was made of his drive in Brazil, but I have little double he will be the next Hamilton.

Just as it is invalid to compare him to the Bottas etc, it is clearly invalid to compare him to legends at this stage of his development. I do believe that he is showing better skills than the last great hopes we have discussed on here over the years, but he has a long way to go. I really hope he gets there as hugely naturally talented, racey, hungry drivers like him are a rare breed in F1, and it clearly shows in Max's achievements to date.

[ajprice]

During quali on C4, Chandhok had a story about Max karting as a kid, where Jos would pick the most difficult corner at whichever track they were at, and tell Max he could only overtake on that corner. So Max went out, and did it all at the awkward corner, and got right up there or won the race. He got the overtaking anywhere thing from that, and carries on that way now, as if the F1 car is a kart.