Is Max Verstappen as good as Senna
Discussion
SeeFive said:
Just as it is invalid to compare him to the Bottas etc, it is clearly invalid to compare him to legends at this stage of his development. I do believe that he is showing better skills than the last great hopes we have discussed on here over the years, but he has a long way to go. I really hope he gets there as hugely naturally talented, racey, hungry drivers like him are a rare breed in F1, and it clearly shows in Max's achievements to date.
I understand your point somewhat - but there is basically no one since Hamilton that has really stood out and made me say "this is someone different" until Max came along. I see it as being very unlikely that he just disappears. He obviously needs time to become a "legend", but he's going to do it most likely between his skills and having the skills to stand out compared to the rest meaning he gets signed up to the best teams. I wouldn't be surprised if he wins the WDC next season already, given the likelihood of the RB being the best car.NRS said:
I understand your point somewhat - but there is basically no one since Hamilton that has really stood out and made me say "this is someone different" until Max came along. I see it as being very unlikely that he just disappears. He obviously needs time to become a "legend"
This is exactly how I feel too. I have been following F1 for nigh on 30 years and it's very rare that someone has made me go "Wow! This is someone pretty damn special!"Drivers who have done so have included Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton. And now Verstappen has made me say that too. Whether he goes on to emulate them, only time and history will tell.
I don't think anyone is claiming he is as good as Senna right now.
ClockworkCupcake said:
This is exactly how I feel too. I have been following F1 for nigh on 30 years and it's very rare that someone has made me go "Wow! This is someone pretty damn special!"
Drivers who have done so have included Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton. And now Verstappen has made me say that too. Whether he goes on to emulate them, only time and history will tell.
I don't think anyone is claiming he is as good as Senna right now.
He doesn't take himself too seriously, which also gives him an advantage around the paddock.Drivers who have done so have included Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton. And now Verstappen has made me say that too. Whether he goes on to emulate them, only time and history will tell.
I don't think anyone is claiming he is as good as Senna right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZI9a0sivBU
SeeFive said:
I do believe that he is showing better skills than the last great hopes we have discussed on here over the years, but he has a long way to go.
Indeed. A very long way. Until march next year to be precise.
If Renault can deliver a competitive engine to Mercedes next season, like Helmut Marko said they will, than Max Verstappen will be the F1 WDC of 2017.
jsf said:
Manor could do a Brawn, that would do your head in. 
None of us have a clue yet, who will build the winning car.
I'd love something like that to happen.None of us have a clue yet, who will build the winning car.
Haas are probably the team which could really pull something out of the bag - they have the engine / gearbox package to do it, they have the budget to do it, If they find some loophole nobody else has found, they could really surprise us.
DeltonaS said:
SeeFive said:
I do believe that he is showing better skills than the last great hopes we have discussed on here over the years, but he has a long way to go.
Indeed. A very long way. Until march next year to be precise.
If Renault can deliver a competitive engine to Mercedes next season, like Helmut Marko said they will, than Max Verstappen will be the F1 WDC of 2017.
I have no doubt he is a talent, and have suggested so in my posts. IMO, he is not one of the greats yet, a comparison against Senna is comparing apples with oranges. The comparison also won't be valid in March next year, it will still be froth.
If all the planets align and Renault pull a rabbit out of the hat, then he will have the chance to drive with a style appropriate for when he has something to lose, which is not the risk laden style he has today - which is fine and entertaining whilst he has the opportunity to shine with little consequence to WDC or WCC. Red Bull will try to wind him in to some level of required maturity when the time comes I am sure.
I have agreed, he could rise to be one of the few involved in the unanswerable argument for the best driver ever in time. The positive ingredients seem to be there, as are some issues with him to be ironed out. We are still very much within his honeymoon period IMO, which maybe by then end of next season could start to conclude one way or the other.
An exciting talent.
SeeFive said:
So are you saying he will, as the title of this thread asks "be as good as Senna" by March next year? I disagree that he is now, or will be then as he has no opportunity to change things in between - there are no races. Never mind Helmut's "he could be WDC next year" statement, with the right kit, could have been this year. And whilst both those statements have a lot of potential, neither can be proven - if my Uncle had tits, he could be my Aunt etc.
Not really - he would just be an unusual looking man! 
SeeFive said:
I have no doubt he is a talent, and have suggested so in my posts. IMO, he is not one of the greats yet, a comparison against Senna is comparing apples with oranges. The comparison also won't be valid in March next year, it will still be froth.
You seem to have forgotten your own reasoning in your previous posts.Of course he's not one of the greats, he's 19 years old, just finished his 2nd year in F1 and his 2nd 3/4 year in Formula racing.
SeeFive said:
If all the planets align and Renault pull a rabbit out of the hat, then he will have the chance to drive with a style appropriate for when he has something to lose, which is not the risk laden style he has today - which is fine and entertaining whilst he has the opportunity to shine with little consequence to WDC or WCC. Red Bull will try to wind him in to some level of required maturity when the time comes I am sure.
Risk laden ?What consequences did it actually have till now ? if you see his braking, tyre management, the way he overtakes, he's fully in control.
The only mistakes he made so far, not a coincidence, are the once you've picked. Monaco twice and his tyre/pitstop mess in Mexico. I'm not counting just a couple of shunts here and there in starts, every driver, the best included, have those.
And required maturity ?
If Hamilton can be three times champion without the "required maturity" I'm sure Verstappen can as well.
SeeFive said:
I have agreed, he could rise to be one of the few involved in the unanswerable argument for the best driver ever in time. The positive ingredients seem to be there, as are some issues with him to be ironed out. We are still very much within his honeymoon period IMO, which maybe by then end of next season could start to conclude one way or the other.
An exciting talent.
First step to be one of the greats is a WDC. If Renault can deliver a Mercedes levelling power unit next season, add Newey's aero magic and the already very good RB chassis, I'm pretty confident we'll see Verstappen on the top spot next season. An exciting talent.
Plus Ricc and Vers have an advantage over the Merc. boys, who've been cruising in front of the pack for three season in a row, being used to traffic. In the beginning of the season Hamilton showed that starting at the front of the grid every race is something else as in midfield.
I think we are not far from agreeing, it is just a matter of time.
My reasoning you say I should be questioning is simple and consistent. To ask if he is as good as Senna or any who qualifies in the same echelon at this stage of his career is froth. Is he as good as Senna was at this stage of Senna's career, well that is a very different question.
I didn't mention Mexico. I mentioned his spin at T1 Abu Dhabi as well as both his dismal Monaco performances - and suggested it was interesting that both episodes this year followed huge adulation over his success in the previous races.
I have not questioned his overtaking prowess - and let's be fair, the guy that folks are comparing him to on this thread suggested on occasions that when he was coming by, other drivers could choose the accident that they wanted to have with him. Max doesn't seem to be doing that, so no issue with risk there.
Where I see his risk is going against the established driving etiquette, such as in his wild, late defences. If certain drivers had not taken massive evasive action to the surprising situation that no other driver would throw in F1 (with the arguable exception of Rosberg), then there would have been a big shunt. The FIA actually had to write a rule to mitigate the danger he posed such was his current level of immaturity and arrogance not to act on the issue that almost everyone in the sport was highlighting as a huge risk.
You seemed keen to highlight my past posts, but miss quite a bit of input. Let's make it clear in this one and hopefully not have to post it again.
He is hot. He has a major talent, possibly THE major new, young talent since Hamilton hit the scene and kept a 2xWDC Alonso honest in his first year in the same car. He is exciting to watch. I hope he matures into a great, potentially join the few names that will be revered in times to come. But I maintain my opinion he isn't there yet, he still needs time and opportunity to prove himself in that select club. He has enormous potential to do so. Hence I think we agree more than we differ.
My reasoning you say I should be questioning is simple and consistent. To ask if he is as good as Senna or any who qualifies in the same echelon at this stage of his career is froth. Is he as good as Senna was at this stage of Senna's career, well that is a very different question.
I didn't mention Mexico. I mentioned his spin at T1 Abu Dhabi as well as both his dismal Monaco performances - and suggested it was interesting that both episodes this year followed huge adulation over his success in the previous races.
I have not questioned his overtaking prowess - and let's be fair, the guy that folks are comparing him to on this thread suggested on occasions that when he was coming by, other drivers could choose the accident that they wanted to have with him. Max doesn't seem to be doing that, so no issue with risk there.
Where I see his risk is going against the established driving etiquette, such as in his wild, late defences. If certain drivers had not taken massive evasive action to the surprising situation that no other driver would throw in F1 (with the arguable exception of Rosberg), then there would have been a big shunt. The FIA actually had to write a rule to mitigate the danger he posed such was his current level of immaturity and arrogance not to act on the issue that almost everyone in the sport was highlighting as a huge risk.
You seemed keen to highlight my past posts, but miss quite a bit of input. Let's make it clear in this one and hopefully not have to post it again.
He is hot. He has a major talent, possibly THE major new, young talent since Hamilton hit the scene and kept a 2xWDC Alonso honest in his first year in the same car. He is exciting to watch. I hope he matures into a great, potentially join the few names that will be revered in times to come. But I maintain my opinion he isn't there yet, he still needs time and opportunity to prove himself in that select club. He has enormous potential to do so. Hence I think we agree more than we differ.
sparta6 said:
Comparisons to Senna are futile.
The title of this thread needs changing to "Is Max Verstappen any good ?"
Or, as I chose to interpret the question, "Does Max Verstappen have the potential to be as good as Senna", to which I say "yes, he certainly seems to be showing the same raw talent that Senna did at the same point in his career". The title of this thread needs changing to "Is Max Verstappen any good ?"
SeeFive said:
I didn't mention Mexico. I mentioned his spin at T1 Abu Dhabi as well as both his dismal Monaco performances - and suggested it was interesting that both episodes this year followed huge adulation over his success in the previous races.
Well, Abu Dhabi had nothing to do with Verstappen, he was squeezed a bit by Hulkenberg who went to the inside mid corner then touched Verstappen. A racing incident at best. SeeFive said:
Where I see his risk is going against the established driving etiquette, such as in his wild, late defences. If certain drivers had not taken massive evasive action to the surprising situation that no other driver would throw in F1 (with the arguable exception of Rosberg), then there would have been a big shunt. The FIA actually had to write a rule to mitigate the danger he posed such was his current level of immaturity and arrogance not to act on the issue that almost everyone in the sport was highlighting as a huge risk..
He made those moves stick and why change if it's not penalized. Horner and Marko both approve.....And you should've seen Schumacher's actions, brake tests and all....
SeeFive said:
You seemed keen to highlight my past posts, but miss quite a bit of input. Let's make it clear in this one and hopefully not have to post it again.
He is hot. He has a major talent, possibly THE major new, young talent since Hamilton hit the scene and kept a 2xWDC Alonso honest in his first year in the same car. He is exciting to watch. I hope he matures into a great, potentially join the few names that will be revered in times to come. But I maintain my opinion he isn't there yet, he still needs time and opportunity to prove himself in that select club. He has enormous potential to do so. Hence I think we agree more than we differ.
Agree. He is hot. He has a major talent, possibly THE major new, young talent since Hamilton hit the scene and kept a 2xWDC Alonso honest in his first year in the same car. He is exciting to watch. I hope he matures into a great, potentially join the few names that will be revered in times to come. But I maintain my opinion he isn't there yet, he still needs time and opportunity to prove himself in that select club. He has enormous potential to do so. Hence I think we agree more than we differ.
although the difference between Verstappen and Hamilton is that Ham had 6 years of formula racing under his belt before he started in F1 (Formula Renault, Formula 3 and GP2), plus he started in a competitive team with WDC winning potential straight away.
Doh, multi quoting is a pain.
First point, disagree. He put his car there, Hulk gave him plenty of room to miss Hulk and all the others who were on the same line as Hulk. A case of everyone else out of step except Max when it comes to track position in T1.
Second, what the f
k does this conversation have to do with Schumacher? Should have seen him? I remember F1 long before he was there but who are we discussing here? So would it be ok if drivers behaved like Michael today? Any idea why brake testing or weaving is frowned upon? I will help. Because a sudden change of velocity or direction in cars at high speed is dangerous, especially when closing speeds are involved. Anyway, there have always been poor drivers in F1 and poor sportsmen which does not excuse Max in that practice. Max is the one that had the rule written to stop him killing someone through his dangerous driving, and the poor sportsmanship was not to listen to anyone who actually was experiencing the danger first hand. The only way to stop the bad practice was to introduce the rule - it was an unwritten agreement between drivers which you cannot penalise before Max started taking the piss. So the fact that max was never penalised is no clue to its okayness.
Of course his Horner and co will side with him - they lose WCC points if he gets penalised places. Unwritten rules - I could respond with a conversation I had with Stirling some time back who thought certain drivers were ungentlemanly when they dropped a wheel off in a corner and showered him with grit. Times change, safety measures improve - and the safety and trust that is inherent today when you know that a car is not gonna move in response to your move as you are 6 inches off the back of it closing it down rapidly at around 320k's is not something that any of the more experienced drivers would like to change back.
Third. Glad we agree on something. Yes, Max is still hugely inexperienced compared to most F1 drivers. It shows in good and bad ways, mostly good.
First point, disagree. He put his car there, Hulk gave him plenty of room to miss Hulk and all the others who were on the same line as Hulk. A case of everyone else out of step except Max when it comes to track position in T1.
Second, what the f
k does this conversation have to do with Schumacher? Should have seen him? I remember F1 long before he was there but who are we discussing here? So would it be ok if drivers behaved like Michael today? Any idea why brake testing or weaving is frowned upon? I will help. Because a sudden change of velocity or direction in cars at high speed is dangerous, especially when closing speeds are involved. Anyway, there have always been poor drivers in F1 and poor sportsmen which does not excuse Max in that practice. Max is the one that had the rule written to stop him killing someone through his dangerous driving, and the poor sportsmanship was not to listen to anyone who actually was experiencing the danger first hand. The only way to stop the bad practice was to introduce the rule - it was an unwritten agreement between drivers which you cannot penalise before Max started taking the piss. So the fact that max was never penalised is no clue to its okayness.Of course his Horner and co will side with him - they lose WCC points if he gets penalised places. Unwritten rules - I could respond with a conversation I had with Stirling some time back who thought certain drivers were ungentlemanly when they dropped a wheel off in a corner and showered him with grit. Times change, safety measures improve - and the safety and trust that is inherent today when you know that a car is not gonna move in response to your move as you are 6 inches off the back of it closing it down rapidly at around 320k's is not something that any of the more experienced drivers would like to change back.
Third. Glad we agree on something. Yes, Max is still hugely inexperienced compared to most F1 drivers. It shows in good and bad ways, mostly good.
Smollet said:
As Max has yet to drive anyone off the track to win a title I'd put him ahead of Senna.
Considering he went against team orders and caused internal friction within Torro Rosso, considering that his racecraft has been criticised to the extent we have the Verstappen Rule it wouldn't surprise me if he resorted to such tactics with WDC on the line.entropy said:
Smollet said:
As Max has yet to drive anyone off the track to win a title I'd put him ahead of Senna.
Considering he went against team orders and caused internal friction within Torro Rosso, considering that his racecraft has been criticised to the extent we have the Verstappen Rule it wouldn't surprise me if he resorted to such tactics with WDC on the line.
Max is a delight to watch, it makes F1 interesting again. How boring is it to see the same guy's win and the same teams loose. He is what the F1 needs right now. I think he is a great driver, stil young but give him a couple of seasons and he will be a winner. Not easy to switch teams in a current season and have to learn a new car over night. He will be a legend, IMHO. The fact we are having this topic and talking about him right now makes him almost a legend
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