I saw at the wheel
Discussion
I have primarily raced lightweight sports cars on slightly rubbish control tyres. I have always sawed at the wheel, particularly on the way into the corner. It is a habit and feels natural. It seems to be a ‘confidence’ thing, if I am constantly varying the amount of slip angle on the front tyre I can feel where the limit of the front axle is, with that information I know what I need to do with my feet in order to hit the apex.
Taking an analytical view, I am wondering if this is a habit I should try to break?
Taking an analytical view, I am wondering if this is a habit I should try to break?
I tend to find that this approach works quite well on FWD cars to get the front turned in and the back slightly loose but generally speaking the smoother you are the faster you'll be.
If you do what you're doing in a RWD car there's a good chance you'll spin, it'll certainly make things a lot more difficult for yourself.
If you do what you're doing in a RWD car there's a good chance you'll spin, it'll certainly make things a lot more difficult for yourself.
Jerry Can said:
are you the fastest in your class/championship?
Slightly binary way of looking at it!R8Steve said:
If you do what you're doing in a RWD car there's a good chance you'll spin, it'll certainly make things a lot more difficult for yourself.
I have only tracked RWD cars and I don't do a lot of spinning.I imagined that there would be some guidance on this in a book, or at least a general consensus that sawing at the wheel is bad / okay etc- you see some drivers at all levels of motorsport sawing while others are serenely smooth. Someone must've hypothesised which is the ideal / fastest?
Personally I'm expecting that in order to be both the fastest and the smoothest is a matter of practice and experience which I might never achieve visiting each circuit once every year or two.
"Good sawing", when you are on the limit of grip (I think usually rear) and sliding into the corner, can look like sawing but the driver is just preventing over rotation.
I've seen lots of good drivers do this, and equally good drivers not do it. Not sure there is a right and wrong, interesting to hear thoughts?
I've seen lots of good drivers do this, and equally good drivers not do it. Not sure there is a right and wrong, interesting to hear thoughts?
if you are the fastest you don't need to worry about it.
however do you have a video of you racing we can view?
You need to understand the difference between your inputs, and the road's inputs back to your hands. It is difficult to drive perfectly smoothly without some additional 'sawing' due to bumps in the road.
Equally a smooth arc/rotation of the steering wheel to reach an apex won't work for all corners.
I think the best way is to rotate the steering wheel like the seconds hand in a perpetual motion watch. However the rate of perpetuity may increase or decrease according to corner severity, tightening or opening. This is true on the way out. That is 1 application of steering, 1 application of brake, 1 application of throttle. (you don't turn out of the corner, you don't reapply the brake, you don't lift off the throttle). But again these are not 100% rules.
Interestingly if you review touring car videos of the mid ish 80's ( 86-87 ) you can see that virtually all of the drivers are sawing at the wheel. This does not happen with today's BTCC. It may due to how to operate a tyre back then, or a latest faddy technique of the time. And yes pro drivers do suffer from this.
see 8.07 in the video below - is that what you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT9J52oVeTM
however do you have a video of you racing we can view?
You need to understand the difference between your inputs, and the road's inputs back to your hands. It is difficult to drive perfectly smoothly without some additional 'sawing' due to bumps in the road.
Equally a smooth arc/rotation of the steering wheel to reach an apex won't work for all corners.
I think the best way is to rotate the steering wheel like the seconds hand in a perpetual motion watch. However the rate of perpetuity may increase or decrease according to corner severity, tightening or opening. This is true on the way out. That is 1 application of steering, 1 application of brake, 1 application of throttle. (you don't turn out of the corner, you don't reapply the brake, you don't lift off the throttle). But again these are not 100% rules.
Interestingly if you review touring car videos of the mid ish 80's ( 86-87 ) you can see that virtually all of the drivers are sawing at the wheel. This does not happen with today's BTCC. It may due to how to operate a tyre back then, or a latest faddy technique of the time. And yes pro drivers do suffer from this.
see 8.07 in the video below - is that what you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT9J52oVeTM
Edited by Jerry Can on Tuesday 6th December 12:35
Edited by Jerry Can on Tuesday 6th December 12:35
I know it sounds simple... but any driving input will change the loading on the tyres. If the loading of the tyres are at their maximum, any input will change the loading and either exceed the tyre's capability or take the loading away from the ideal. Both will lose ultimate grip, apex speed and laptime. So the simple answer is... no sawing! However racing isn't that simple.
My take on it is:
Be as smooth as possible, at all times, with all inputs.
Sawing to "find the limit" will mean you are too slow, you should be on the limit already. De-construct the corner and work out what to change on breaking point, turning in point, entry speed etc is to make sure the tyres are at the limit of the traction circle throughout the corner until power limited on exit. Watching other peoples videos with the "g-meter" (which I know isn't the same as the traction circle) shows up really clearly where they are poor on brakes etc. Some of the differences I see are 1.3g on a good corner and others are 0.6g. Yes camber/surface change the traction available, but not by that much.
Sawing to control an inbalance front to rear then the focus should be on achieving a better balance or moderating the driver inputs to make them more progressive and putting the tyres in to the peak traction zone more progressively.
All this is comming from a top 10 driver in a single make championship so I am by no means an expert or a winner!
My take on it is:
Be as smooth as possible, at all times, with all inputs.
Sawing to "find the limit" will mean you are too slow, you should be on the limit already. De-construct the corner and work out what to change on breaking point, turning in point, entry speed etc is to make sure the tyres are at the limit of the traction circle throughout the corner until power limited on exit. Watching other peoples videos with the "g-meter" (which I know isn't the same as the traction circle) shows up really clearly where they are poor on brakes etc. Some of the differences I see are 1.3g on a good corner and others are 0.6g. Yes camber/surface change the traction available, but not by that much.
Sawing to control an inbalance front to rear then the focus should be on achieving a better balance or moderating the driver inputs to make them more progressive and putting the tyres in to the peak traction zone more progressively.
All this is comming from a top 10 driver in a single make championship so I am by no means an expert or a winner!
Jerry Can said:
if you are the fastest you don't need to worry about it.
however do you have a video of you racing we can view?
You need to understand the difference between your inputs, and the road's inputs back to your hands. It is difficult to drive perfectly smoothly without some additional 'sawing' due to bumps in the road.
Equally a smooth arc/rotation of the steering wheel to reach an apex won't work for all corners.
I think the best way is to rotate the steering wheel like the seconds hand in a perpetual motion watch. However the rate of perpetuity may increase or decrease according to corner severity, tightening or opening. This is true on the way out. That is 1 application of steering, 1 application of brake, 1 application of throttle. (you don't turn out of the corner, you don't reapply the brake, you don't lift off the throttle). But again these are not 100% rules.
Interestingly if you review touring car videos of the mid ish 80's ( 86-87 ) you can see that virtually all of the drivers are sawing at the wheel. This does not happen with today's BTCC. It may due to how to operate a tyre back then, or a latest faddy technique of the time. And yes pro drivers do suffer from this.
see 8.07 in the video below - is that what you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT9J52oVeTM
The action is similar but judge for yourself. First through, read my excuses. however do you have a video of you racing we can view?
You need to understand the difference between your inputs, and the road's inputs back to your hands. It is difficult to drive perfectly smoothly without some additional 'sawing' due to bumps in the road.
Equally a smooth arc/rotation of the steering wheel to reach an apex won't work for all corners.
I think the best way is to rotate the steering wheel like the seconds hand in a perpetual motion watch. However the rate of perpetuity may increase or decrease according to corner severity, tightening or opening. This is true on the way out. That is 1 application of steering, 1 application of brake, 1 application of throttle. (you don't turn out of the corner, you don't reapply the brake, you don't lift off the throttle). But again these are not 100% rules.
Interestingly if you review touring car videos of the mid ish 80's ( 86-87 ) you can see that virtually all of the drivers are sawing at the wheel. This does not happen with today's BTCC. It may due to how to operate a tyre back then, or a latest faddy technique of the time. And yes pro drivers do suffer from this.
see 8.07 in the video below - is that what you do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT9J52oVeTM
While I have done about four season’s racing I have rarely ran a camera in my own car. This is the most recent footage I have to hand , and conveniently it’s from Brands Hatch GP. Unfortunately it was my first visit to the GP layout and I only had about 25 minutes in total to learn it, including a pointless 15 minute free practice session in soaking wet conditions, mostly behind the safety car. It also isn’t my car- it’s far more expensive than I could conceivably afford to fix- so my lines around the unfamiliar Grand Prix sections are tight and nervous.
1964 Elan 26R spec – Dunlop historic tyres
https://vimeo.com/192027378
This was the fastest lap I managed. The lap time in our class placed us as third fastest out of six finishers.
Results sheets are here, Qualifying page 89-96, Race page 229-242
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/mstworld-motors...
In historic racing it’s a technical competition as much as a motor race and this result is not a particularly useful yard stick- Our car is neither the first nor second fastest in that class.
I did 50 races in my own Caterham in a spec series (2010-2013) starting out as a total novice, Had one pole, a couple of wins and numerous podiums. I never had fastest laps etc but it eventually became apparent that my engine was a bit crap and after I sold the car it emerged that the shock absorbers weren't working (I did promise excuses!)
ETA: Watching my Brands video again, I 100% concede that with practice I could've found much of the 1.2 second per lap deficit to the class winner. Very slow around the GP loop and clearways.
Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 6th December 13:30
HustleRussell said:
Thurbs- I sold my car and eventually it ended up with Dan Livingstone who used to race a clio that looked a lot like yours (Don't worry, the Caterham received new shock absorbers in the interim!)
It is the very same car... I spoke with Dan about it a few months ago... small world indeed. 
I thought it looked familiar. FWIW Dan didn't buy the car from me, it went through a couple of pairs of hands in between- but I was in touch with him about it and I did tell him the engine isn't the strongest. Had a view of your video and all looks pretty ok to me. Clearly you don't have a lot of grip, hence lots of smallish steering movements.
Generally the less grip you have the more [ to be quick ] you need to work at the wheel, big fat slicks and some downforce require less steering movement as the car is more planted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, normally!
I hate watching videos like this, makes me want to compete again
Generally the less grip you have the more [ to be quick ] you need to work at the wheel, big fat slicks and some downforce require less steering movement as the car is more planted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, normally!
I hate watching videos like this, makes me want to compete again
Mark A S said:
Had a view of your video and all looks pretty ok to me. Clearly you don't have a lot of grip, hence lots of smallish steering movements.
Generally the less grip you have the more [ to be quick ] you need to work at the wheel, big fat slicks and some downforce require less steering movement as the car is more planted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, normally!
I hate watching videos like this, makes me want to compete again
Cheers, That was the third from last lap of a 40 minute race so the Dunlop bias ply historic tyres were going off (Is anybody counting these excuses?) Generally the less grip you have the more [ to be quick ] you need to work at the wheel, big fat slicks and some downforce require less steering movement as the car is more planted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, normally!
I hate watching videos like this, makes me want to compete again
Excuses are all a part of competing 
You think your "busy" at the wheel, try even less grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLy-8aAFHmI
Apologies for the language, but I had over pre heated the rears prior to the stage start and they were locking up way too easily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see your not alone in excuses !
You think your "busy" at the wheel, try even less grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLy-8aAFHmI
Apologies for the language, but I had over pre heated the rears prior to the stage start and they were locking up way too easily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see your not alone in excuses !OP, I'd agree with a lot of what's been said, generally too much movement at the wheel is going to reduce the grip limits rather than find them but a lot of what you were doing in that video was reacting to the car going beyond grip limits rather than causing it to happen and you were doing it quite nicely IMO.
Generally the time to calm the hands down is at turn in and through the entry phase to maximise entry speed without the car sliding. You could maybe steer slightly more slowly but at first glance you don't look that far off to me.
Generally the time to calm the hands down is at turn in and through the entry phase to maximise entry speed without the car sliding. You could maybe steer slightly more slowly but at first glance you don't look that far off to me.
I'm not a racing instructor, but I would say that it depends on the source of the sawing:
1) If you're putting it in yourself, then yes, you could be quicker without it. The reason for that is simply that if you're sawing back and forth you'll only be at the optimum front slip angle now and then (and likely the rear too, given it's connected to the front), whereas to be fastest you need to be holding the car at that point the whole time. Additionally, you'll get more grip out of a tyre by not 'surprising' it - it's like the principle of static and dynamic friction (only 'like' because a tyre doesn't behave like a standard object on a plane surface in basic school physics).
2) If the sawing is coming up through the steering and you are simply letting the car 'breathe' over the bumps and changing surfaces, then I'd say that's fine. This tendency can vary between cars - my 2-Eleven for example did it loads, because they're designed with steering feel high up the list of priorities - if you held the wheel loose then it'd kick back left and right quite a lot, but never change its course.
3) This is the least likely, but if you're unsteady with the throttle or the brakes in a corner then obviously that'll need corrections from the steering, so that could be another cause. Steering, throttle and brakes work together, so if you change one it'll usually require a change in the other - an extension of this principle is how you go round a corner quickly in the first place, exchanging one control for another the whole time.
1) If you're putting it in yourself, then yes, you could be quicker without it. The reason for that is simply that if you're sawing back and forth you'll only be at the optimum front slip angle now and then (and likely the rear too, given it's connected to the front), whereas to be fastest you need to be holding the car at that point the whole time. Additionally, you'll get more grip out of a tyre by not 'surprising' it - it's like the principle of static and dynamic friction (only 'like' because a tyre doesn't behave like a standard object on a plane surface in basic school physics).
2) If the sawing is coming up through the steering and you are simply letting the car 'breathe' over the bumps and changing surfaces, then I'd say that's fine. This tendency can vary between cars - my 2-Eleven for example did it loads, because they're designed with steering feel high up the list of priorities - if you held the wheel loose then it'd kick back left and right quite a lot, but never change its course.
3) This is the least likely, but if you're unsteady with the throttle or the brakes in a corner then obviously that'll need corrections from the steering, so that could be another cause. Steering, throttle and brakes work together, so if you change one it'll usually require a change in the other - an extension of this principle is how you go round a corner quickly in the first place, exchanging one control for another the whole time.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 8th December 17:26
Mark A S said:
Excuses are all a part of competing
You think your "busy" at the wheel, try even less grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLy-8aAFHmI
Apologies for the language, but I had over pre heated the rears prior to the stage start and they were locking up way too easily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see your not alone in excuses !
You think your "busy" at the wheel, try even less grip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLy-8aAFHmI
Apologies for the language, but I had over pre heated the rears prior to the stage start and they were locking up way too easily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see your not alone in excuses !
“Tidy it up, c’mon”…. Enjoyed that. Bloody slippy. No shortage of rotation!I think I can take from this thread the suggestion that I could probably do with a more positive turn-in as I tend to have a bit of a jab. I’m going racing in my own car with grippier tyres next season- I’ll see if I can smooth it out.
HustleRussell said:
I think I can take from this thread the suggestion that I could probably do with a more positive turn-in as I tend to have a bit of a jab. I’m going racing in my own car with grippier tyres next season- I’ll see if I can smooth it out.
That's a possibility, yes. You may just need more force down over the front tyres when you turn in, which can be easily altered by changing your use of weight transfer. What's your timing like with braking and turning in? I say that because if you change the setup it might make you slower in other areas (e.g. getting on the power leaving the corner), whereas a change in driving style might sort it straight away.Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 8th December 16:11
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