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Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

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The Surveyor

4,023 posts

150 months

Tuesday 10th January
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number 46 said:
The fracture was not alleged,the question is, did it broke as a result of the front wheels hitting the wall or before?

It was broken at the join between the thinner inserted section and the original column. Usually the column is supported at the steering wheel end, in the cockpit and at the pedal box end. Looking at the pictures of the car that seems to be where the supports were. Senna wanted the wheel closer to him, so as the wheel is a detachable one, they could not move it on the end of the column. They had insert tube into the column around halfway along its length to achieve this.
The steering column had been extended making the wheel further away from the last support. Looking at the pictures it fractured just beyond that last support where the extended column had been joined which would have been it's weakest point because a) it was where it had been welded which creates a natural weakness, and b) it was the point subjected to the highest bending off the 'wheel.

If Senna insisted on the modification, he was party to the introduction of that failure-point, the extra weakness in the component.

There is still no evidence to say whether that weakness failed under steering load, or due to the impact.

angrymoby

448 posts

91 months

Tuesday 10th January
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if Senna's steering column had failed whilst under quite considerable load, wouldn't his right hand have literally crossed & hit the left hand side of the tub ...& then a lots of subsequent hand flapping?

& wouldn't this be pretty easy to simulate & test on a rig?


KaraK

12,377 posts

122 months

Tuesday 10th January
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Eric Mc said:
I trust Damon Hill more than anyone here - that's for sure.
nono Sorry Eric that just doesn't wash. What could Damon Hill know? I mean, it's not as if he had experience driving the same model of car, on the same circuit, in the same conditions, on the same day and it's not as if he had altered his line through that corner specifically to avoid some of the bumpier parts of the track to avoid unsettling the notoriously "touchy" Williams or anything. Oh, wait. rolleyes

For what it's worth I'm still with Newey on this one - that a right-rear puncture caused the car to get out of shape over the bumps (as seen from Schumacher's on-board IIRC) and that he applied what corrective measures he could but was mostly a passenger from then until impact, and then he got unlucky with the suspension piercing his helmet It's consistent with the footage we have, consistent with the data we've seen and it comes from from the chief designer of the car who also happens to be perhaps one of the most gifted technical F1 people ever.

The problem is that to many Senna was some sort of literal driving god on earth and they simply cannot accept that their idol could die in such a relatively prosaic way. So what do they do? They latch on to the most dramatic, the most conspiratorial explanation, and the one that (most importantly) removes not only any culpability for the crash from their hero, it goes one step further by being a failure that not even God/Jesus/Thor themselves could have recovered from. Then, they repeat it back to each other over and over and over again until every last detail is twisted to fit their chosen theory and if it can't be made to fit then it will either be ignored, the person who said it subjected to ad hominem attacks or they'll simply change it. The last time we did this topic ELUSIVEJIM copied and pasted a quote from Newey that was carefully pruned of anything that countered the theory - we established at the time that he wasn't the editor but someone, somewhere was and that's pretty disturbing.

Still we'll keep going round the same old tired arguments every 4-6 months so at least we have a comforting little routine thumbup






number 46

783 posts

161 months

Tuesday 10th January
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The car had power steering, so the load needed to steer would not be that much. I wonder if, rather than just breaking in two, the column may have initially twisted at the thinner material, then shearing in half at impact? There does seem to be a fair amount of un-supported column after the mount shown in the pics, unless there was a further mount closer to the steering wheel?

Watching the way the car speared off the circuit, in my view seems to show a lack of front grip, hence the possibility of steering failure or perhaps a front wing problem.

Another issue I have with the low tyre pressures/loss of downforce theory is that all the tyres would have been low, not just the rears, so if any thing the ground effect would have increased? One of the reason for introducing the plank under the cars was to enforce a minimum ride height so as to limit the affect of ground effect.

ELUSIVEJIM

1,508 posts

64 months

Tuesday 10th January
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[quote=KaraK]

nono Sorry Eric that just doesn't wash. What could Damon Hill know? I mean, it's not as if he had experience driving the same model of car, on the same circuit, in the same conditions, on the same day and it's not as if he had altered his line through that corner specifically to avoid some of the bumpier parts of the track to avoid unsettling the notoriously "touchy" Williams or anything. Oh, wait. rolleyes

For what it's worth I'm still with Newey on this one - that a right-rear puncture caused the car to get out of shape over the bumps (as seen from Schumacher's on-board IIRC) and that he applied what corrective measures he could but was mostly a passenger from then until impact, and then he got unlucky with the suspension piercing his helmet It's consistent with the footage we have, consistent with the data we've seen and it comes from from the chief designer of the car who also happens to be perhaps one of the most gifted technical F1 people ever.

The problem is that to many Senna was some sort of literal driving god on earth and they simply cannot accept that their idol could die in such a relatively prosaic way. So what do they do? They latch on to the most dramatic, the most conspiratorial explanation, and the one that (most importantly) removes not only any culpability for the crash from their hero, it goes one step further by being a failure that not even God/Jesus/Thor themselves could have recovered from. Then, they repeat it back to each other over and over and over again until every last detail is twisted to fit their chosen theory and if it can't be made to fit then it will either be ignored, the person who said it subjected to ad hominem attacks or they'll simply change it. The last time we did this topic ELUSIVEJIM copied and pasted a quote from Newey that was carefully pruned of anything that countered the theory - we established at the time that he wasn't the editor but someone, somewhere was and that's pretty disturbing.

Still we'll keep going round the same old tired arguments every 4-6 months so at least we have a comforting little routine thumbup





You are totally contradicting yourself.

If Senna had a slow puncture "which is highly plausible" then why would the accident be a driving error?

As I have stated from day one that curve was not an issue for any driver in a F1 car unless the car had a problem.

There were many other ill handling cars which went around that curve without any accidents.

The simple fact is Senna had an issue with the car which set him into an unprotected wall.

No driver past or present would be able to control a car with an issue hence why he crashed.

For Eric to state he just "lost it" without any car issues while near the exit of that Tamburello curve is simply complete nonsense.

There are far too many unanswered questions regarding the accident but that would just be fabrication in your mind.



Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 11th January 00:31

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ELUSIVEJIM

1,508 posts

64 months

Wednesday 11th January
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angrymoby said:
if Senna's steering column had failed whilst under quite considerable load, wouldn't his right hand have literally crossed & hit the left hand side of the tub ...& then a lots of subsequent hand flapping?

& wouldn't this be pretty easy to simulate & test on a rig?
Funny enough the footage was cut.

You see Senna's head moving to the left before the footage stops.

I am sure if we were able to see further footage including the impact it would answer many questions.

Alas at that very point it cut away. *Cough*

heebeegeetee

24,549 posts

161 months

Wednesday 11th January
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ELUSIVEJIM said:
Funny enough the footage was cut.

You see Senna's head moving to the left before the footage stops.
That's right. I think the rear of the car has lost downforce and stepped to the right, Senna steers to the right to counteract, you can see the car move to the right in the outside footage and you Senna's head move left as he steers (these are all momentary movements of course) from the cockpit footage.

None of this could have happened if the steering broke, the car would have gone off straight as a die a la Berger, imo.

jm doc

519 posts

145 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Very interesting to see those pictures of the broken steering column again after all this time. I'm curious as to what force during the accident could have caused it to shear like that. In any impending accident one of the most important things to do is to remove your hands from the steering wheel. If Senna did do this, which is almost instinctive for most drivers never mind someone of his experience, then what forces were applied to the column that would cause it to shear? It didn't bend in any way whatsoever, that is clear from the pictures and if Senna had impacted with the wheel then it would have bent and deformed before it snapped.

I think the way that it has sheared would have been a significant factor in the Italian Court's verdict stating that the column failed. I also believe that metallurgical analysis of the fracture site on the column would also support this. I have a recollection of reading that this had been carried out and confirmed that it had failed through stress rather than the collision, I think it was reported some years later in the press but cannot recall this clearly, someone else may be able to help in this respect.

I agree with others on this thread that the car just went straight off the track exactly as it would if there was a steering failure. I saw no evidence whatsoever of a car in a skid or in any way unsettled or disturbed such as some have suggested.

Finally, I agree with others that Senna made lots of mistakes in his career, some like Monaco which were ridiculous, it's just that there is no evidence at all that this was one of them.

F1GTRUeno

3,032 posts

131 months

Wednesday 11th January
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ELUSIVEJIM said:
angrymoby said:
if Senna's steering column had failed whilst under quite considerable load, wouldn't his right hand have literally crossed & hit the left hand side of the tub ...& then a lots of subsequent hand flapping?

& wouldn't this be pretty easy to simulate & test on a rig?
Funny enough the footage was cut.

You see Senna's head moving to the left before the footage stops.

I am sure if we were able to see further footage including the impact it would answer many questions.

Alas at that very point it cut away. *Cough*
Now you get into the politics surrounding it because that footage should still exist. Cameras don't stop recording just because the director of the programme decides to change which camera to get footage from.

Of course I presume the full footage of the onboard was shown during the trials? It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it's not available for public viewing but it does surprise me that nobody has said anything about it after all these years. Does that mean there's nothing to tell or that they're under an extremely long gag not to?

For those saying it was the downforce changing during the corner, causing a slide that Senna corrected and then the downforce picked up at the exact wrong moment (quite literally unbelievably unfortunate but certainly possible), is it then possible that the force Senna exerted on the steering column to correct the slide could've broken the steering column anyway?

Certainly you don't use measured inputs on instinct and definitely not at that speed, it would've been a full shove using all his strength. Could certainly have overbeared an already cracking, fatigued column right?

I must admit I've learnt a few things in this thread about the FW16. Mainly about how badly the suspension was handling the downforce and it does make some sense that it could've been the cause so I could happily concede to those more experienced but my gut feeling is telling me the column broke. I wish it didn't but it does.

Vocal Minority

6,464 posts

65 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Say the steering column did fail - what caused it?

Bebee

4,006 posts

138 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Vocal Minority said:
Say the steering column did fail - what caused it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_64k44_pm_M

The last part of the vid shows him leaning his head to go left but his left front wheel (in shot) does not move to his head and steering wheel actions, the car goes straight on, he's a passenger.




Mark A S

1,057 posts

101 months

Wednesday 11th January
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I found this on line, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formul...

Appears a well thought out article, but this paragraph stood out:

“Brundle draws a contrasting conclusion. “I had a conversation only this month at the Chinese Grand Prix, where I learned quite a bit more information,” he discloses. “I’m nervous about putting my opinion on it, because the cars didn’t have as many data acquisition tools then. It was probably a set-up issue – a combination of low tyre pressure, an odd aerodynamic effect on the car, and Ayrton pushing hard against Schumacher. But the impression is that his steering column failed.”

I have a great deal of respect for Martin as I do Damon. However in this instance I think Damon is supporting the Williams line out of loyalty maybe.

I am sure the truth will come out one day. In todays “sensitive” blame culture world, I can understand no one wanting to admit the car might have failed.

The Surveyor

4,023 posts

150 months

Wednesday 11th January
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F1GTRUeno said:
Of course I presume the full footage of the onboard was shown during the trials? It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that it's not available for public viewing but it does surprise me that nobody has said anything about it after all these years. Does that mean there's nothing to tell or that they're under an extremely long gag not to?
If there was any further conclusive footage, it would have come out by now. F1 is littered with recordings of the awful deaths of drivers with very little censoring so they wouldn't withhold purely out of respect. The recordings were done by the TV teams and not the team so again there would be no reason not to release the footage if it actually showed anything helpful such as Senna steering wildly without any effect or simply the steering wheel and column coming away in the drivers hands. If such footage existed and if it was shown in the trial we would all know about it, it would have been 100% conclusive over when the column failed leaving no scope for further conjecture.

F1GTRUeno said:
For those saying it was the downforce changing during the corner, causing a slide that Senna corrected and then the downforce picked up at the exact wrong moment (quite literally unbelievably unfortunate but certainly possible), is it then possible that the force Senna exerted on the steering column to correct the slide could've broken the steering column anyway?
Personally for me, that's a strong possibility although I do believe the column broke in the impact.

number 46

783 posts

161 months

Wednesday 11th January
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I doubt very much that each cars camera output was being recorded in 1994, the videos of the crash will most likely be what ever the TV director on the day had cut up on the mixer, hence the in car footage being just short clips. Perhaps their may be the odd iso. feed, so from a helicopter which would have been continuously recorded, or a wide shot of the straight or pits. But usually at the time the host broadcaster would provide a feed of the race which depended on what shot the director had cut up.

The tyre pressure/punture and loss of downforce theory is plausable, the data from the car according to Williams, suggests that Senna was correcting some oversteer as he was entering the corner, which may not be unusual as he was undoubtable on the limit and pushing hard, the car may well be 'drifting' a little.

For me, the way the car just went straight of the track with no sign of any loss of rear grip and Senna's head moving hard to left as if to turn left points to a mechanical problem, much like Bergers crash.

I wonder if the column was deforming at the thinner section of tube thus not allowing the steering input to work fully, I don't think that the wheel just came off in Senna's hand.


NickCW

109 posts

43 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Is there another link to the video the OP posted?
Seems to have gone before I had a chance to view the extra few seconds..

Vocal Minority

6,464 posts

65 months

Wednesday 11th January
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I have certainly seen a full on board of Senna's last lap - it's on the FIA 94 season review. Cut just before the accident - I assume for reasons of good taste.

That wasn't broadcast continuously at the time, so one assumes the footage exists - or at least did.

ELUSIVEJIM

1,508 posts

64 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Vocal Minority said:
I have certainly seen a full on board of Senna's last lap - it's on the FIA 94 season review. Cut just before the accident - I assume for reasons of good taste.

That wasn't broadcast continuously at the time, so one assumes the footage exists - or at least did.
Yes this is correct.

The camera on Senna's car would be running and recording for the whole race up until the accident. As the accident was on the right hand side of the car the camera would have been safe from being destroyed as it was on the left side of the car.

The BBC and Eurosport had a shot of Senna heading down toward Tamburello before moving into Schumacher's behind shot of Senna before the car then darts to the right.

The footage of Senna on board was used while Senna was behind the safety car but not used again during the race.

The whole final lap and a half of Senna's life was recorded in full which as mentioned stops just when Senna's car head towards the wall.

It is situations like this which causes the doubt in peoples minds.

Full footage of the BBC and Eurosport feed which was obviously shown around the World.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqgqy9_formula-1-...


Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 11th January 13:58

The Surveyor

4,023 posts

150 months

Wednesday 11th January
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Vocal Minority said:
I have certainly seen a full on board of Senna's last lap - it's on the FIA 94 season review. Cut just before the accident - I assume for reasons of good taste.

That wasn't broadcast continuously at the time, so one assumes the footage exists - or at least did.
Yes this is correct.

The camera on Senna's car would be running and recording for the whole race up until the accident. As the accident was on the right hand side of the car the camera would have been safe from being destroyed as it was on the left side of the car.

The BBC and Eurosport had a shot of Senna heading down toward Tamburello before moving into Schumacher's behind shot of Senna before the car then darts to the right.

The footage of Senna on board was used while Senna was behind the safety car but not used again during the race.

The whole final lap and a half of Senna's life was recorded in full which as mentioned stops just when Senna's car head towards the wall.

It is situations like this which causes the doubt in peoples minds.

....
The Italian courts would not have cut the film on the grounds of 'good taste' had it been available, and why does the fact it's not available 'cause the doubt in peoples mind'.

Are you saying that the FIA, the BBC, Eurosport, all colluded with Williams to hide this film from Senna's family and the Italian Courts because that is some accusation, and one hell of a conspiracy theory?



Nanook

27,389 posts

100 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Eric Mc said:
All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.

Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?
I haven't seen anyone suggest that he was infallible, that he couldn't possibly have made a mistake. It's not difficult to understand that he may have made a mistake.

But you seem to be suggesting that he'd crashed before, so despite all the evidence that there may have been a mechanical failure or a puncture, this one must just have been driver error too. And you're not basing that on all the technical evidence, you're basing it on what the driver behind can recall seeing with his Mk1 eyeball, whilst driving a very harsh car on a very bumpy piece of road, going very quickly.

Perhaps consider that before you insinuate other people are being a bit stupid?

Eric Mc

91,186 posts

178 months

Wednesday 11th January
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Did I say to anybody they were stupid?