Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

[anonymous-user]

jm doc said:

Apology accepted and returned, but don't let it happen again

I cant guarantee that.

[number 46]

jsf said:

It doesn't matter how large or small the steering wheel is, the torque applied to the column is dictated only by the relationship between the tyre grip and the steering rack load ratio through the assembly.

Using a large steering wheel reduces the amount of effort the driver has to put into the steering system, not the amount of work the steering column does.

It's very basic mechanical leverage principles.

Thanks for the lesson!

I was not being very clear, I was wondering whether the wider steering wheel may well have put more lateral and vertical load on the column at the bush section, leading it to fail. As there was 22 cms of unsupported column beyond the bush with a steering wheel on the end, gripped by the driver, there would be some movement as well as a torque element. The in car video of his last lap does seem to show very excessive and unusual movement of the steering wheel, especially just before he looses control.

Edited by number 46 on Wednesday 18th January 00:03

[anonymous-user]

number 46 said:

jsf said:

It doesn't matter how large or small the steering wheel is, the torque applied to the column is dictated only by the relationship between the tyre grip and the steering rack load ratio through the assembly.

Using a large steering wheel reduces the amount of effort the driver has to put into the steering system, not the amount of work the steering column does.

It's very basic mechanical leverage principles.

Thanks for the lesson!

I was not being very clear, I was wondering whether the wider steering wheel may well have put more lateral and vertical load on the column at the bush section, leading it to fail. As there was 22 cms of unsupported column beyond the bush with a steering wheel on the end, gripped by the driver, there would be some movement as well as a torque element. The in car video of his last lap does seem to show very excessive and unusual movement of the steering wheel, especially just before he looses control.

Edited by number 46 on Wednesday 18th January 00:03

I think that is unlikely a wheel size would make any difference, because the load in the vertical/horizontal plane wont be any different, the leverage in that direction is a function of where the various fulcrum points are, which don't change with a change in wheel size.

You may get some subtle differences driver to driver, but in these cars you are not putting load into the steering wheel other than a twist load because you are strapped in tight to the car. In a road car you can sometimes find yourself using the steering wheel to support yourself, if you were doing that in an F1 car you literally couldn't drive the thing.

The steering column will have some stress in it at the upper bush point from general G loads in cornering and compression from the assemblies own mass plus the mass of the drivers arms as the driver is subjected to the G loads. But that wont be a function of the wheel size or the driver pulling down/up/side/side as all those forces are managed by the seat belts and seat fit.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Some interesting insights on the man himself and the accident from none other than Jo Ramirez.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/motor...

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

[anonymous-user]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Some interesting insights on the man himself and the accident from none other than Jo Ramirez.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/motor...

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

WOW. What a find.

Alonso and Lewis

Schumacher obviously HAD traction control.

Jo Ramitez thoughts on the accident

Steve Soper

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 18th January 21:09

[LaurasOtherHalf]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

WOW. What a find.

Alonso and Lewis

Schumacher obviously HAD traction control.

Jo Ramitez thoughts on the accident

Steve Soper

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Wednesday 18th January 21:09

Made me laugh as well

[vonuber]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

Does he scoff at the idea that the car bottomed out and Senna was effectively a passenger through no fault of his own?

[JNW1]

vonuber said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

Does he scoff at the idea that the car bottomed out and Senna was effectively a passenger through no fault of his own?

The evidence shows there were fewer sparks and bottoming-out taking place on lap 7 than on lap 6; that seems entirely logical given the car had done another lap at racing speed so that begs the question why would the car get away from Senna on lap 7 when he'd set one of fastest laps of the race on colder tyres on lap 6? You'd think that, from a tyre temperature and pressure perspective, the car should have been getting progressively easier to drive rather than becoming more difficult?

The evidence also appears to show much more irregular movement of the steering column on lap 7 compared to lap 6 and the morning warm-up; therefore, on balance of probabilities isn't it reasonable to conclude that an issue with the steering column was a more likely cause of the accident than simply bottoming-out over the bumps?

If Senna chose to push hard across a bumpy part of the circuit before his tyres were up to pressure - and then couldn't control the car when it bottomed out - that's really just a misjudgement and mistake on behalf of the driver in my book. However, like Jo Ramirez, I don't see Senna making one on what amounted to a curve on a straight rather than a genuine corner; I therefore think some form of car failure probably caused the accident and until someone can give a satisfactory explanation for the sudden, irregular, movement of the steering column on lap 7 that remains the prime suspect IMO.

[The Surveyor]

JNW1 said:

If Senna chose to push hard across a bumpy part of the circuit before his tyres were up to pressure - and then couldn't control the car when it bottomed out - that's really just a misjudgement and mistake on behalf of the driver in my book. However, like Jo Ramirez, I don't see Senna making one on what amounted to a curve on a straight rather than a genuine corner; I therefore think some form of car failure probably caused the accident and until someone can give a satisfactory explanation for the sudden, irregular, movement of the steering column on lap 7 that remains the prime suspect IMO.

It does make sense. Would anybody think that Senna would have felt that the steering wheel was moving about mid-failure and stop, or do you think the racing-driver mentality would be to push on until something actually failed?

[GreigM]

JNW1 said:

the car should have been getting progressively easier to drive rather than becoming more difficult?

Or also easily explained that he was pushing progressively harder each lap as the tyres were coming in, and he pushed slightly too hard. The improved handling can explain less sparks. Pushing harder can explain the extra steering wheel movement.

People on this thread are drawing conclusions about the steering column that there is no evidence for.

[rallycross]

The people who know F1 inside out all say the same thing - an F1 car will not go off at that corner unless there is a failure on the car.

[rallycross]

The people who know F1 inside out all say the same thing - an F1 car will not go off at that corner unless there is a failure on the car.

[JNW1]

GreigM said:

JNW1 said:

the car should have been getting progressively easier to drive rather than becoming more difficult?

Or also easily explained that he was pushing progressively harder each lap as the tyres were coming in, and he pushed slightly too hard. The improved handling can explain less sparks. Pushing harder can explain the extra steering wheel movement.

People on this thread are drawing conclusions about the steering column that there is no evidence for.

The point I'm making is that the chances of the car going out of control as a result of bottoming-out should have been less on lap 7 than lap 6 (because the car was bottoming-out less as a result of the tyres coming up to temperature and pressure).

As for pushing harder explaining the extra steering wheel movement, Senna was pushing in the morning warm-up and set a time significantly faster than anyone else; however, no irregular movement of the steering column is evident in the on-board footage from that session. Similarly, the level of movement evident in both Hill's car and that of both the Williams over the previous two Grand Prix weekends is nothing like that seen on Senna's car on lap 7 at Imola. So no, I'm not buying the idea that the column was moving around so much before his accident simply because he was pushing harder; IMO a far more plausible explanation for the irregular movement is that something had changed on the car (i.e. the column had started to fail).

However, I should say again that I'm not pretending to draw any definitive conclusion here. As I've said on more than one occasion, we'll never know for sure what caused the accident, all we can do is form an opinion based on the evidence we've got; personally I think that evidence points most strongly towards steering column failure (basically I agree with Martin Zustak's analysis) but I accept that doesn't make it a fact!

[heebeegeetee]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Some interesting insights on the man himself and the accident from none other than Jo Ramirez.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/motor...

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

Blimey I've been listening to those for some years but have missed that one.

Looking at the comments underneath, I see "At the end of the day its a very truthful account of what happened in those years"

and my thoughts are "Christ, I disagree with that 100%".

I did think the overall reaction amongst proper race fans at the time was along the lines of 'a nice film, well made, complete fairy story though'.

I'll have to watch it again to see if I still feel the same.

[JNW1]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Some interesting insights on the man himself and the accident from none other than Jo Ramirez.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/motor...

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

As a result of listening to that podcast I found there was an alternative (extended) version of Senna the movie which includes various interviews not included in the film screened in the cinema. For the sake of £4.99 I ordered the Blu-ray DVD which includes both versions and, while I haven't watched it all as yet, I have looked at some of the interviews which include several snippets with Alain Prost. Inevitably he's posed a question about his feeling on the likely cause of the accident and his response is unequivocal; for sure it was a mechanical failure. Obviously that still doesn't make it a fact but it's clear he's firmly in the camp that thinks it's highly unlikely Senna would have made a fatal error on a corner like Tamburello.....

[anonymous-user]

JNW1 said:

As a result of listening to that podcast I found there was an alternative (extended) version of Senna the movie which includes various interviews not included in the film screened in the cinema. For the sake of £4.99 I ordered the Blu-ray DVD which includes both versions and, while I haven't watched it all as yet, I have looked at some of the interviews which include several snippets with Alain Prost. Inevitably he's posed a question about his feeling on the likely cause of the accident and his response is unequivocal; for sure it was a mechanical failure. Obviously that still doesn't make it a fact but it's clear he's firmly in the camp that thinks it's highly unlikely Senna would have made a fatal error on a corner like Tamburello.....

I am amazed that anyone would argue that it was a mistake by the driver.

When Roland crashed Senna himself went against the rules and ordered a driver to take him down to the scene of the accident to find out what went wrong.

As we know Roland damaged the front wing but continued thinking it was safe to do so.

Damon was in the other FW16. This curve was flat out for all cars as it was that easy but Senna crashes and Hill was fine.

Damon in qualifying was only +0.620 away from Senna so to say he was not driving flat out around Tamburello is total rubbish.

[anonymous-user]

Hill was lucky he did not have a front wing fail at Tamburello or Villeneuve after continuing with this spin.

Roland unfortunately was not so luck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuLxuySCrFE

[vonuber]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I am amazed that anyone would argue that it was a mistake by the driver.

Why is it so hard for you to entertain it as a possibility?

[anonymous-user]

vonuber said:

Why is it so hard for you to entertain it as a possibility?

Not one accident at Tamburello was due to driver error. Each and every crash was due to a car fault.

The Williams issue was low speed corners not high speed.

Just look at the following footage

Lap 6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HOtPfscH-c

Lap 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUKgfWQHf7s

Lap 7 Cockpit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RohiGS5Ac6U

Footage is not great but look at the front left wheel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBbLJvFW5Ck


Why is it so hard for you to entertain it was a car fault?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

heebeegeetee said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Some interesting insights on the man himself and the accident from none other than Jo Ramirez.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/history/f1/motor...

He scoffs at the thought of a mistake at such a corner.

Blimey I've been listening to those for some years but have missed that one.

Looking at the comments underneath, I see "At the end of the day its a very truthful account of what happened in those years"

and my thoughts are "Christ, I disagree with that 100%".

I did think the overall reaction amongst proper race fans at the time was along the lines of 'a nice film, well made, complete fairy story though'.

I'll have to watch it again to see if I still feel the same.

Only on pistonheads can someone take the veiws of Jo Remires on Senna and claim to know better.

Perhaps check out the extended cut of the film, it is still of course a cinematic documentary and bound by the story arc that most are but it does offer some more insight. It doesn't quite flow as well as the original mind you.