Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...
Discussion
vonuber said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Not one accident at Tamburello was due to driver error. Each and every crash was due to a car fault.
So? Always a first time for everything. It's telling you can't even concede the possibility. vonuber said:
JNW1 said:
Of course it's a possibility but are you suggesting the available evidence points to driver error being the most likely cause of the accident?
No I'm saying it cannot be ruled out.vonuber said:
JNW1 said:
Of course it's a possibility but are you suggesting the available evidence points to driver error being the most likely cause of the accident?
No I'm saying it cannot be ruled out.ELUSIVEJIM said:
Not one accident at Tamburello was due to driver error. Each and every crash was due to a car fault.
What make you say that?In this article Ferrari sporting director Cesare Fiorio says the cause of Berger's crash is unknown but Piquet's was driver error:
"A driving mistake is still possible, that was the case when Piquet had crashed there two years earlier. Still, a technical failure was one of the most probable causes."
http://www.sniffermedia.com/blog/2014/04/03/imola-...
Norfolkit said:
Another possible factor is Senna's state of mind that day, Sid Watkins was obviously worried about him. Before I get flamed, I'm not saying he'd gone crazy or anything just that maybe his concentration wasn't where it needed to be, maybe he was just distracted, who knows.
Possible but in his book Damon Hill says that by the time the race came around he was sure Senna's mind was on only one thing - winning the race - and the evidence of race day right up to the accident seems to support that; despite being upset by Ratzenberger's death the day before Senna was easily the fastest in the Sunday morning warm-up and on lap 6 he set one of the fastest laps of the race even though he was on a relatively high fuel load with tyres not up to temperature/pressure. As he started lap 7 he had Schumacher breathing down his neck so my money would be on his mind being firmly on racing at that stage; he may indeed have had things that were bothering or distracting him (professionally and/or personally) but for the duration of the race I think he'd have blanked them out and at the time of the accident I doubt his attention was on anything other than winning the San Marino GP.Mr_Thyroid said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Not one accident at Tamburello was due to driver error. Each and every crash was due to a car fault.
What make you say that?In this article Ferrari sporting director Cesare Fiorio says the cause of Berger's crash is unknown but Piquet's was driver error:
"A driving mistake is still possible, that was the case when Piquet had crashed there two years earlier. Still, a technical failure was one of the most probable causes."
http://www.sniffermedia.com/blog/2014/04/03/imola-...
As for Piquet's accident being driver error, Fiorio is the only person I've seen suggest that. The consensus has always been that it was caused by a tyre failure and Goodyear even replaced tyres between the Friday and Saturday sessions because other drivers had been complaining about blistering with the compound supplied originally.
JNW1 said:
The article you posted actually says the primary cause of Berger's accident was a weakness in the design of the front wing which John Barnard subsequently corrected; surely that's car failure not a mistake by the driver?!
As for Piquet's accident being driver error, Fiorio is the only person I've seen suggest that. The consensus has always been that it was caused by a tyre failure and Goodyear even replaced tyres between the Friday and Saturday sessions because other drivers had been complaining about blistering with the compound supplied originally.
Exactly.As for Piquet's accident being driver error, Fiorio is the only person I've seen suggest that. The consensus has always been that it was caused by a tyre failure and Goodyear even replaced tyres between the Friday and Saturday sessions because other drivers had been complaining about blistering with the compound supplied originally.
Norfolkit said:
Another possible factor is Senna's state of mind that day, Sid Watkins was obviously worried about him. Before I get flamed, I'm not saying he'd gone crazy or anything just that maybe his concentration wasn't where it needed to be, maybe he was just distracted, who knows.
Senna was fastest in Sunday morning warm up. As soon as a driver gets in a car the outside World issues are gone.vonuber said:
So? Always a first time for everything. It's telling you can't even concede the possibility.
Never. Only people who would come under fire from the death of Senna stated he made a mistake.You want to see a F1 car bottoming out while on a faster circuit???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GZ6-pGj1-Y
JNW1 said:
Possible but in his book Damon Hill says that by the time the race came around he was sure Senna's mind was on only one thing - winning the race - and the evidence of race day right up to the accident seems to support that; despite being upset by Ratzenberger's death the day before Senna was easily the fastest in the Sunday morning warm-up and on lap 6 he set one of the fastest laps of the race even though he was on a relatively high fuel load with tyres not up to temperature/pressure. As he started lap 7 he had Schumacher breathing down his neck so my money would be on his mind being firmly on racing at that stage; he may indeed have had things that were bothering or distracting him (professionally and/or personally) but for the duration of the race I think he'd have blanked them out and at the time of the accident I doubt his attention was on anything other than winning the San Marino GP.
Hill book seems to be being used a lot on here.I am amazed considering his memory loss below he was able to remember anything of the past to be able to write a book.
Perhaps this should be read regarding Hill at the Senna trial
Before chief prosecutor Maurizio Passarini could begin his examination, Michael Breen, Hill's lawyer, asked for the eviction of television crews from the courtroom. Time passed as those involved argued with judge Antonio Costanzo about their rights before they were finally removed.
Somewhere en-route, however, Hill seemingly left part of his memory behind, although he did confirm that alterations were made to the steering column of the FW16 Williams driven both by himself and Senna in the 1994 season.
Passarini wanted to know when exactly the steering column had been modified.
"I don't know exactly," Hill replied. "I think it was before we went to the first test, but I can't be sure."
Before the first race of the season, then?
"I can't remember the exact date. I seem to remember it being done before we ran the car. In other words, before it went to a racetrack."
Before the beginning of the championship then?
"Yes", a stony faced Hill replied.
When had he known about the modification?
"Because I don't know when it was done, I can't tell you. I was made aware that it had been done."
Did he remember who had informed him of it?
"No."
Passarini then asked if he would confirm that in 1994 the FW16 ran with power steering?
"Yes, it did."
He was asked if he could remember if the car had power steering in 1993?
"I don't remember."
Passarini then told Hill that by the statement he gave to him (Passarini) in June, 1994. the system was new for 1994.
"In the two previous races in 1994, did you race with or without the power steering?" asked Maurizio Passarini.
"I honestly don't remember."
"And at the San Marino Grand Prix, did you have a chance to talk to Senna about the car? As far as you know, did he complain about his car?"
"I don't remember," Hill replied, yet again…
Selective amnesia
Asked about the modifications, Hill said, "We found it very tight in the car, in my case, the problem was that there was very little room between myself and the steering wheel."
He could not remember whether Senna had complained about the handling of his car after the steering column modification, although he could remember details of a meeting he attended with the Williams team.
He said he reached his conclusion about the oversteer after replaying the video footage at a meeting with Williams engineers at the teams Didcot headquarters less than a week after the tragedy.
More than an hour was spent viewing the film from Senna's on-board camera and Hill was then invited to comment upon it.
He appeared reluctant to be categorical but remarked: "There are two distinct times where the car looks to be oversteering and the steering wheel is exactly the way I would expect to see it to correct oversteer."
Asked whether the apparent oversteer in Senna's car was due to low tyre pressure or the state of the Imola track, Hill answered:
"You cannot separate the two, my idea looking at it is that the car seems to oversteer when it crosses the place on the circuit where there are some marks."
Hill's testimony appears to support that of Williams defence lawyers who in March claimed that Senna's death was due to anomalies in the asphalt track surface.
Hill also undermined another of the prosecution's claims - that the FOCA had failed to supply the complete film shot by the camera inboard Senna's car - stating that the footage he saw during the meeting at Williams also ended before Senna's car left the track.
When faced with a bombardment of questions from state prosecutor Maurizio Passarini, Hill repeatedly answered:
"I cannot remember, it was too long ago."
However his memory returned when the chief prosecutor persisted with the prosecution teams' charges that a weld made to shorten the column snapped moments before impact.
"I came away from the meeting with the opinion that there must have been some other reason for the accident other than the obvious one that there had been a failure in the steering," Hill told the court.
Hill said that he had not experienced any problems with oversteer at the San Marino Grand Prix, but added that Patrick Head had told him to switch off his power steering as he waited on the grid, after Senna's accident, and the restart of the race.
The power steering could be activated from the cockpit.
"It was obvious at the restart that they wanted to be sure things were all right in the car. I didn't ask for a reason. I just did what I was told," Hill said.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
vonuber said:
So? Always a first time for everything. It's telling you can't even concede the possibility.
Never. Only people who would come under fire from the death of Senna stated he made a mistake.You want to see a F1 car bottoming out while on a faster circuit???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GZ6-pGj1-Y
ELUSIVEJIM said:
F1GTRUeno said:
That's an active suspension car though, I'd imagine it's monitoring and managing constantly. The FW16 didn't have that luxury.
Ahh good point. 
Forgot 1991 was the first year of active suspension.
Teppic said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
F1GTRUeno said:
That's an active suspension car though, I'd imagine it's monitoring and managing constantly. The FW16 didn't have that luxury.
Ahh good point. Forgot 1991 was the first year of active suspension.
The video in the OP's post appears to have been deleted.
I have never believed that Ayrton made a mistake in that corner - if you look at the in car footage the car does not appear to make any attempt to make the corner. It just seems to carry straight on into the wall.
Not the kind of rookie error that Ayrton would make, particularly on a corner such as that.
As to the actual cause I doubt that it will ever proven what went wrong unless someone from Williams (or someone who is 'in the know') gives it up.
I have never believed that Ayrton made a mistake in that corner - if you look at the in car footage the car does not appear to make any attempt to make the corner. It just seems to carry straight on into the wall.
Not the kind of rookie error that Ayrton would make, particularly on a corner such as that.
As to the actual cause I doubt that it will ever proven what went wrong unless someone from Williams (or someone who is 'in the know') gives it up.
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