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Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

Slightly different footage of Senna's crash...

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heebeegeetee

24,853 posts

163 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qYXVfY_9IE

I still do not see Senna's car stepping out before the car head towards the wall.

He is about to exit tamburello when the car clear just goes straight on.

Tamburello was a long curve and not even a corner as such. Without a car issue the corner was easily flat out.

Name one driver who lost it at Tamburello with a driving error. They were all mechanical or due to a coming together.
I don't think the footage is clear enough to show us exactly what happens but I do think you can see it turn to the right, as mentioned in the commentary.

Cars do go off with an aero problem, Berger's was very disturbing, and that's with a driver who had driven the car over the laps since the wing was damaged and he clearly was not expecting that to happen.

jsf

5,943 posts

151 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
some photos of the column and tub at http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1...

Eric Mc

92,711 posts

180 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Cars do go off with an aero problem,
And the Williams FW16 - at that point in time - had serious aero problems.

Sheetmaself

3,149 posts

113 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
jsf said:
Sheetmaself said:
jsf said:
Sheetmaself said:
I believe that the other tub may be in the picture as well, see this thread from a while back

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=942...

Again i have no proof apart from i was told at the time, but all hree of us that were there remember the same story being told to us.
The car was released from the Italian Court and returned to Williams March 14 2002

http://www.ayrton-senna.com/s-files/noticebd.html
I completely agree that this is what we have been told, again i have no proof but i was also told that they had it way before this date and, admittedly with the cover on, shown it by a person who seemed to have a great deal of knowledge.

Please note i am not giving this as fact as i have no proof at all, but it has never sat right with me what we have been told vs what my family was told.
The car was photographed leaving the court compound in Italy in 2002, what more evidence do you need than that?
When was it photographed going in? Like i keep saying i have no proof, i am not sure, but i do know what i was told and that is that one of the cars was the unused spare, one of the cars was the actual car. If i was more certain i would of come forward at the time to question it and nothing has increased my level of certainty. All i am willing to do is let people know my doubts i am not here to tell people here is proof that lies told as i have no solid evidence of this.

jsf

5,943 posts

151 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
OK, I'm out, this is absurd.
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Sheetmaself

3,149 posts

113 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
jsf said:
OK, I'm out, this is absurd.
I think mainly because you ate not reading what i am saying. I am not saying here is a photo of the car which was taken in 1994 this proves that everyone is lying and the car wasnt only released from court years later.

What i am saying and keep saying is this is what i have been told by an employee, this is a photo i have taken myself which raises a few questions in itself as the tarpaulin does not look like the shape underneath is what you would expect it to be.
If you experience something yourself which contradicts something you have heard through third parties (the media) i suspect you would have a doubt as well. Nothing that makes you shout from the rooftops that you are right and others are lying but enough doubt to make you think hmm.

em177

2,486 posts

79 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Lets see the pic then...

heebeegeetee

24,853 posts

163 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
jsf said:
some photos of the column and tub at http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1...
Looking at those pics I'm not seeing any weld where the column has broke.

number 46

796 posts

163 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
We will probably never know for sure what caused the crash. My initial feeling when watching the race was that it was a failure on the car, most probably steering failure. Looking at the various pieces of footage, the car just goes straight over the gravel trip into the wall, as if either Senna pass out or he just could not steer the car around the curve.

I suspect that the column partially failed and that Senna knew, hence him braking so quickly and so hard, he was just very unlucky that he hit the wall at such an shallow angle and that the front wheel/suspension hit his head.

The loss of down force theory falls down for me for the following reasons,

1. The previous lap he had no problem and the tyres pressures would have been lower.
2. If the rear of the car bottomed enough to loose airflow under the car, this would have caused the rear diffuser to create less down force and lees grip at the rear, in this scenario the car would have gone into an oversteer and I would expect it to go off backwood into the wall.

If you look at the steering column photos, it seems that the column was extended by welding in a length of smaller diameter tube, look at the wall thickness of that tube compared to the column above, it is very thin and it looks like it is deformed from twisting. Every single seater racing car that I have raced has always had a very thick walled tube as the column, I have never seen or raced a car which has a steering wheel that moves around!!! as suggested in the doc clip linked too above.

Because this happened in Italy, the politics have over ruled the truth and I guess that we may never know for quite some time what really happened.



Sheetmaself

3,149 posts

113 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
em177 said:
Lets see the pic then...
Posted yesterday the link at 22:29

As said it gives questions as looks for the world that the rear wing is in place which unless built up would not be the case.

ELUSIVEJIM

1,621 posts

66 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
[quote=number 46]We will probably never know for sure what caused the crash. My initial feeling when watching the race was that it was a failure on the car, most probably steering failure. Looking at the various pieces of footage, the car just goes straight over the gravel trip into the wall, as if either Senna pass out or he just could not steer the car around the curve.

I suspect that the column partially failed and that Senna knew, hence him braking so quickly and so hard, he was just very unlucky that he hit the wall at such an shallow angle and that the front wheel/suspension hit his head.

The loss of down force theory falls down for me for the following reasons,

1. The previous lap he had no problem and the tyres pressures would have been lower.
2. If the rear of the car bottomed enough to loose airflow under the car, this would have caused the rear diffuser to create less down force and lees grip at the rear, in this scenario the car would have gone into an oversteer and I would expect it to go off backwood into the wall.

If you look at the steering column photos, it seems that the column was extended by welding in a length of smaller diameter tube, look at the wall thickness of that tube compared to the column above, it is very thin and it looks like it is deformed from twisting. Every single seater racing car that I have raced has always had a very thick walled tube as the column, I have never seen or raced a car which has a steering wheel that moves around!!! as suggested in the doc clip linked too above.

Because this happened in Italy, the politics have over ruled the truth and I guess that we may never know for quite some time what really happened.





Spot on.

Eric Mc

92,711 posts

180 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
number 46 said:
We will probably never know for sure what caused the crash. My initial feeling when watching the race was that it was a failure on the car, most probably steering failure. Looking at the various pieces of footage, the car just goes straight over the gravel trip into the wall, as if either Senna pass out or he just could not steer the car around the curve.

I suspect that the column partially failed and that Senna knew, hence him braking so quickly and so hard, he was just very unlucky that he hit the wall at such an shallow angle and that the front wheel/suspension hit his head.

The loss of down force theory falls down for me for the following reasons,

1. The previous lap he had no problem and the tyres pressures would have been lower.
2. If the rear of the car bottomed enough to loose airflow under the car, this would have caused the rear diffuser to create less down force and lees grip at the rear, in this scenario the car would have gone into an oversteer and I would expect it to go off backwood into the wall.

If you look at the steering column photos, it seems that the column was extended by welding in a length of smaller diameter tube, look at the wall thickness of that tube compared to the column above, it is very thin and it looks like it is deformed from twisting. Every single seater racing car that I have raced has always had a very thick walled tube as the column, I have never seen or raced a car which has a steering wheel that moves around!!! as suggested in the doc clip linked too above.

Because this happened in Italy, the politics have over ruled the truth and I guess that we may never know for quite some time what really happened.

On the second lap he was travelling faster and took a wider line - which was bumpier.

Th3e car lost downforce in an unpredictable way - especially over bumps. That's why Hill stayed away from that part of the track.

All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.

Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?

Vocal Minority

7,009 posts

67 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Sheetmaself said:
I think mainly because you ate not reading what i am saying. I am not saying here is a photo of the car which was taken in 1994 this proves that everyone is lying and the car wasnt only released from court years later.

What i am saying and keep saying is this is what i have been told by an employee, this is a photo i have taken myself which raises a few questions in itself as the tarpaulin does not look like the shape underneath is what you would expect it to be.
If you experience something yourself which contradicts something you have heard through third parties (the media) i suspect you would have a doubt as well. Nothing that makes you shout from the rooftops that you are right and others are lying but enough doubt to make you think hmm.
I don't doubt you were told what you were told. I would suggest though it is easily dismissed.

The security guard was either confused, or - more likely - having a little fib to feel like the big I am/have a little fun with the fans and knows how to deliver a fib with just the right level of confidence to be believed.

Occam's Razor suggests that.

The alternative is absurd in the cold light of day. Why on earth would it be back at the factory, with the Italian judicial system lying about keeping it.

Who would benefit? What would be the purpose?

Why on earth would it be on full view with guests coming in?!

Also - the cover is a different shape - but at a quick glance it looks more like a sports car tub with two roll over hoops! No good reason it should be though of course.

Anyway - if I were to put a tenner on it I'd suggest he was fibbing and there is no mystery] - and maybe the time has come to dismiss it rather than present it as something you were told and can't verify.

Sorry

Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 10th January 17:04

number 46

796 posts

163 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
On the second lap he was travelling faster and took a wider line - which was bumpier.

Th3e car lost downforce in an unpredictable way - especially over bumps. That's why Hill stayed away from that part of the track.

All you guys who refuse to believe that Senna couldn't make an error of judgement are living in some sort of fantasy land. he made plenty of mistakes and crashed plenty of times. And often those crashes were by him trying too hard and exceeding the limits of the cars he was driving.

Is that too difficult or too hard for you to contemplate?
Why do you keep banging on about us not excepting that Senna made an error!! I don't think that anyone on this trend has said that? Are you saying that Senna made an error in taking a different line? I'm not sure that he did take that much of a different line and even if he had I just do not think that it would result in the car driving straight off the road.

Have you ever raced fast single seaters or any racing car? Some of the stuff mentioned in the documentary linked to earlier in the thread is just a load of bks. For example the moving steering wheel being a design feature!!! There is no way that you could drive any racing car with a steering wheel that moves around like a wooden spoon in a bowl of custard. The loss of rear downforce would cause the car to spin off backwards, look at footage of cars loosing their rear wing, the rear goes and you spin off backwards, you don't go straight on on a lefthand bend when you loos rear down force. If the rear diffuser was stalled then if anything the car would have had steered more to the left if there was left steering lock on, not just sparred off the road. The footage of the crash from outside the car shows just how straight the car went off.


A long fast corner is easy to drive and the only challenge is having the balls to not back off and believe in the car. A car does not drive spare straight off a corner the way that Senna's Williams did unless something failed.


Vocal Minority

7,009 posts

67 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Out of interest - where was the FW16s steering column clamped and where was the alleged (for the sake of completeness) fracture?

Eric Mc

92,711 posts

180 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
number 46 said:
Why do you keep banging on about us not excepting that Senna made an error!! I don't think that anyone on this trend has said that? Are you saying that Senna made an error in taking a different line? I'm not sure that he did take that much of a different line and even if he had I just do not think that it would result in the car driving straight off the road.

Have you ever raced fast single seaters or any racing car? Some of the stuff mentioned in the documentary linked to earlier in the thread is just a load of bks. For example the moving steering wheel being a design feature!!! There is no way that you could drive any racing car with a steering wheel that moves around like a wooden spoon in a bowl of custard. The loss of rear downforce would cause the car to spin off backwards, look at footage of cars loosing their rear wing, the rear goes and you spin off backwards, you don't go straight on on a lefthand bend when you loos rear down force. If the rear diffuser was stalled then if anything the car would have had steered more to the left if there was left steering lock on, not just sparred off the road. The footage of the crash from outside the car shows just how straight the car went off.


A long fast corner is easy to drive and the only challenge is having the balls to not back off and believe in the car. A car does not drive spare straight off a corner the way that Senna's Williams did unless something failed.
Certain people seem to be of the opinion that the only reason he crashed was because something on the car broke. That is a statement of belief not supported by any facts whatsoever.

Senna made an error by committing himself to a very fast high G corner in a car that was displaying lots of instability - especially on bumps. He over committed himself and flew off the road.

And he had done that on quite a few occasions previously - in better handling cars too.

number 46

796 posts

163 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
Out of interest - where was the FW16s steering column clamped and where was the alleged (for the sake of completeness) fracture?
The fracture was not alleged,the question is, did it broke as a result of the front wheels hitting the wall or before?

It was broken at the join between the thinner inserted section and the original column. Usually the column is supported at the steering wheel end, in the cockpit and at the pedal box end. Looking at the pictures of the car that seems to be where the supports were. Senna wanted the wheel closer to him, so as the wheel is a detachable one, they could not move it on the end of the column. They had insert tube into the column around halfway along its length to achieve this.


number 46

796 posts

163 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Certain people seem to be of the opinion that the only reason he crashed was because something on the car broke. That is a statement of belief not supported by any facts whatsoever.

Senna made an error by committing himself to a very fast high G corner in a car that was displaying lots of instability - especially on bumps. He over committed himself and flew off the road.

And he had done that on quite a few occasions previously - in better handling cars too.
There are some contested facts to suggest that something on the car broke, the broken modified column, the line the car took, the in car footage.

There are no facts to support your claim, just your opinion and /or interpretation of observations made by Hill and others.

You may correct or I maybe, if we knew for sure which one of us was correct then we wouldn't be having this debate!!!!

Sheetmaself

3,149 posts

113 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
Sheetmaself said:
I think mainly because you ate not reading what i am saying. I am not saying here is a photo of the car which was taken in 1994 this proves that everyone is lying and the car wasnt only released from court years later.

What i am saying and keep saying is this is what i have been told by an employee, this is a photo i have taken myself which raises a few questions in itself as the tarpaulin does not look like the shape underneath is what you would expect it to be.
If you experience something yourself which contradicts something you have heard through third parties (the media) i suspect you would have a doubt as well. Nothing that makes you shout from the rooftops that you are right and others are lying but enough doubt to make you think hmm.
I don't doubt you were told what you were told. I would suggest though it is easily dismissed.

The security guard was either confused, or - more likely - having a little fib to feel like the big I am and knows how to deliver a fib with just the right level of confidence to be believed.
I completely agree that logic suggests you are right.

Eric Mc

92,711 posts

180 months

Tuesday 10th January
quotequote all
number 46 said:
There are some contested facts to suggest that something on the car broke, the broken modified column, the line the car took, the in car footage.

There are no facts to support your claim, just your opinion and /or interpretation of observations made by Hill and others.

You may correct or I maybe, if we knew for sure which one of us was correct then we wouldn't be having this debate!!!!
I trust Damon Hill more than anyone here - that's for sure.