Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
Not such a disaster on power unit components used as first thought, so far. Not more than Haas, Ferrari or Red Bull.
http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/244584/1/power-uni...
http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/244584/1/power-uni...
FourWheelDrift said:
Not such a disaster on power unit components used as first thought, so far. Not more than Haas, Ferrari or Red Bull.
http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/244584/1/power-uni...
That can all change after FP2, which is when they'd actually install new parts.http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/244584/1/power-uni...
tristancliffe said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
I am surprised at that. I mean 1-cylinder engines are typically research engines, things you use to try something wacky in isolation so you can understand it better. Something you use to prove a new concept.. i.e. stuff in the bottom few Technology Readiness Levels (TRL). Its not something you should still be using a few months away from the start of the season!
In F1, even during the token era, they are constantly doing research. And it doesn't make sense every time you want to try a tweak to a head or a piston or a valve to build an entire IC engine just for that. All the teams will be using [several] single cylinder engines right now. I know it's fashionable to rant against Honda at the moment, but it really isn't much effort to hold off on things you don't know much about or to do the necessary research so that you do know.
Most everything else got done on full engines including stuff like testing the first electric motor-generator turbos (which came with its own oil cooling cart!!! And could only be run for about 10 minutes!).
Also did a lot of dual fuel work (diesel-gas) and that started on single cylinder and then progress to full engines. It's surprising what works on a single in the lab and then doesn't once it's on a full engine....And again once that's applied to an engine in a vehicle.
They are useful tools and you don't stop using them. But they are limited in the grander scheme. Of course honda can be using the time on them but you'd hope they were well onto the finer points with a full engine + gearbox (or simulator) + hybrid system well before testing started. Not still trying to nail the fundamentals on a single cylinder.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 13th April 22:43
Friend of mine works at Woking. He works in powertrains for the road cars. I dare say it's turned out to be a better option over the F1 side!
He has some great stories about dumb rules they have. Or should i say had... Apparently if it seemed a bit daft, it was Ron.
Like for instance, having the nearly finished cars lined up in the workshop with the wheels perfectly aligned in the centre of a tile with wheel face parallel to the grouting.
He has some great stories about dumb rules they have. Or should i say had... Apparently if it seemed a bit daft, it was Ron.
Like for instance, having the nearly finished cars lined up in the workshop with the wheels perfectly aligned in the centre of a tile with wheel face parallel to the grouting.
Very interesting discussion on Sky Sports now...
Rumours that Sauber will switch to Honda shortly and that Mercedes are about to provide technical expertise to Honda to help resolve their power deficit. The other rumour, which they discount, was that McLaren will switch to Mercedes power.
Rumours that Sauber will switch to Honda shortly and that Mercedes are about to provide technical expertise to Honda to help resolve their power deficit. The other rumour, which they discount, was that McLaren will switch to Mercedes power.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/9301/is-mercedes-comi...
There may be some truth in this, my ITK guy down at HPP has confirmed it
There may be some truth in this, my ITK guy down at HPP has confirmed it
Doink said:
http://www.thedrive.com/news/9301/is-mercedes-comi...
There may be some truth in this, my ITK guy down at HPP has confirmed it
Too many TLAs! (Strictly speaking, not acronyms, but you get my drift?)There may be some truth in this, my ITK guy down at HPP has confirmed it
Otispunkmeyer said:
Friend of mine works at Woking. He works in powertrains for the road cars. I dare say it's turned out to be a better option over the F1 side!
He has some great stories about dumb rules they have. Or should i say had... Apparently if it seemed a bit daft, it was Ron.
Like for instance, having the nearly finished cars lined up in the workshop with the wheels perfectly aligned in the centre of a tile with wheel face parallel to the grouting.
Did he mention the same requirement for trolleys too? There are hundreds of stories about Ron on that subject. If you've visited the MTC you'll not fail to be impressed. Here's a doorhandle for instance... He has some great stories about dumb rules they have. Or should i say had... Apparently if it seemed a bit daft, it was Ron.
Like for instance, having the nearly finished cars lined up in the workshop with the wheels perfectly aligned in the centre of a tile with wheel face parallel to the grouting.
Fernando Alonso fumes at lack of power from McLaren's Honda engine 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/04/16/fe...
What surprises me now, is that this new Honda engine is still in the same situation, (
) as when Honda arrived back into Formula 1 many, many months ago. 
McLaren are now constant 'also rans' (
) and it can't be doing the reputation of Honda any good either. 
It is beyond a joke, IMHO it is an full scale disaster for BOTH McLaren and Honda.
Surely it is time (
) for them to go their separate ways. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/04/16/fe...
What surprises me now, is that this new Honda engine is still in the same situation, (
) as when Honda arrived back into Formula 1 many, many months ago. McLaren are now constant 'also rans' (
) and it can't be doing the reputation of Honda any good either. It is beyond a joke, IMHO it is an full scale disaster for BOTH McLaren and Honda.
Surely it is time (
) for them to go their separate ways. Im out of sympathy for Honda now. McLaren should grab Merc engines if Alonso leaves, because the Honda F1 engine dept is clearly the worst in the sport. McLaren have given them plenty of time, if less data, at great reputational cost to themselves and have recieved a grenade in a box for two seasons and a warm turd for the middle one.
Ron felt that there was no point being anything other than a works team as you'd always be given second best, but Honda are slopping up a fifth-rate non-engine and Alonso is being creamed on the straights by last years hand-me-downs. Vandoorne on the grid was a total farce!
What's the word on how Renualt are doing? They seem to have improved their works team, which wouldn't be hard, but RB have gone backwards and Horner was, uncharactaristically, taking it on the chin rather than whinging about the engine like in 2014. Is the engine a step up, or is Horner just afraid he'll end up with a Honda in the back?
Ron felt that there was no point being anything other than a works team as you'd always be given second best, but Honda are slopping up a fifth-rate non-engine and Alonso is being creamed on the straights by last years hand-me-downs. Vandoorne on the grid was a total farce!
What's the word on how Renualt are doing? They seem to have improved their works team, which wouldn't be hard, but RB have gone backwards and Horner was, uncharactaristically, taking it on the chin rather than whinging about the engine like in 2014. Is the engine a step up, or is Horner just afraid he'll end up with a Honda in the back?
glazbagun said:
What's the word on how Renualt are doing? They seem to have improved their works team, which wouldn't be hard, but RB have gone backwards and Horner was, uncharactaristically, taking it on the chin rather than whinging about the engine like in 2014. Is the engine a step up, or is Horner just afraid he'll end up with a Honda in the back?
Because this time it's not the engine that is the problem.Red Bull have some chassis problems, and they have identified that the correlation data between the wind tunnel, CFD and track data do not match. Now that they have identified the problem they can work on fixing it, to the point that there will essentially be a 'B' spec car at Barcelona.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36232.html
Teppic said:
glazbagun said:
What's the word on how Renualt are doing? They seem to have improved their works team, which wouldn't be hard, but RB have gone backwards and Horner was, uncharactaristically, taking it on the chin rather than whinging about the engine like in 2014. Is the engine a step up, or is Horner just afraid he'll end up with a Honda in the back?
Because this time it's not the engine that is the problem.Red Bull have some chassis problems, and they have identified that the correlation data between the wind tunnel, CFD and track data do not match. Now that they have identified the problem they can work on fixing it, to the point that there will essentially be a 'B' spec car at Barcelona.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36232.html
You really can't believe what any of the official team comments are, it's a constant process to come up with the next lie to sell whilst they go about their business.
greygoose said:
I met a McLaren employee last night bringing parts back from Germany to UK, a daily trip apparently for wind tunnel testing, he was pretty downbeat about their prospects. Sadly the parts were not a German engine to go in the back.
Are they using the Toyota Wind tunnel? What happened to the one built into MTC? Not up to the job anymore?Otispunkmeyer said:
Friend of mine works at Woking. He works in powertrains for the road cars. I dare say it's turned out to be a better option over the F1 side!
He has some great stories about dumb rules they have. Or should i say had... Apparently if it seemed a bit daft, it was Ron.
Like for instance, having the nearly finished cars lined up in the workshop with the wheels perfectly aligned in the centre of a tile with wheel face parallel to the grouting.
I knew that last one about the line up. TBH It's a throw back from Bernie and the trucks in the paddock being lined up accurately and with the plates in ascending order He has some great stories about dumb rules they have. Or should i say had... Apparently if it seemed a bit daft, it was Ron.
Like for instance, having the nearly finished cars lined up in the workshop with the wheels perfectly aligned in the centre of a tile with wheel face parallel to the grouting.
Honda will pretty much get there. McLaren aren't going to Mercedes, Sauber are about to double Honda's testing hours and they are successfully getting many more brains on board.
I predict Honda's rate of progress this season will be seriously impressive. I'm not saying they will no longer be the worst engine manufacturer in the sport by the start of next season but they will be close.
I predict Honda's rate of progress this season will be seriously impressive. I'm not saying they will no longer be the worst engine manufacturer in the sport by the start of next season but they will be close.
If nithing else, it's a good test of their commitment after bailing during the financial crisis, along with Toyota and their in-house money-burning departments.
If McLaren come good in another 2 years and win the WCC, it'll be the sweetest champagne ever tasted by an engine maker.
Of course for that to happen they'll need to retain a top driver.
If McLaren come good in another 2 years and win the WCC, it'll be the sweetest champagne ever tasted by an engine maker.
Of course for that to happen they'll need to retain a top driver.
HustleRussell said:
Honda will pretty much get there. McLaren aren't going to Mercedes, Sauber are about to double Honda's testing hours and they are successfully getting many more brains on board.
I predict Honda's rate of progress this season will be seriously impressive. I'm not saying they will no longer be the worst engine manufacturer in the sport by the start of next season but they will be close.
I am not convinced that the corporate culture is up to the task.I predict Honda's rate of progress this season will be seriously impressive. I'm not saying they will no longer be the worst engine manufacturer in the sport by the start of next season but they will be close.
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