The Official 2017 Australian Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
PhillipM said:
Yes, Newey has stated that's the entire purpose of them being on the car.
I was refering to Vambo with the degree dig, not yourself - but if you can't see that it would accelerate the airflow and straighten it over the rear wing in operating slip angles, how else do you want me to explain it? You don't suddenly 'lose' the airflow, it still goes over the rear wing.
There is nothing in that video or what you have said that contradicts what Symonds was talking about and I have not suggested that the shark fin doesn't help do exactly what Newey describes in the video. We are talking cross purposes.I was refering to Vambo with the degree dig, not yourself - but if you can't see that it would accelerate the airflow and straighten it over the rear wing in operating slip angles, how else do you want me to explain it? You don't suddenly 'lose' the airflow, it still goes over the rear wing.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 26th March 08:39
The guy in the video even says that there can be a disparity in air speed either side of the fin, now imagine the car at a severe yaw angle, air on one side has slowed dramatically, the flow on one side rushes in to the fin and is pushed over that side of the rear wing - all good. What Pat was pointing out is that the other half of the wing has a much slower airflow over it, reducing downforce. If the fin wasn't there it would be receiving faster airflow, but flow over the wing would be more equal than it is with the fin. Essentially at high yaw the downforce the wing provides is unbalanced between left and right.
If you re-watch the section and listen to what Pat says you'll maybe understand that no-one is denying the shark fin helps at low yaw angle.
Edited by Crafty_ on Sunday 26th March 08:53
The card analogy is just b
ks, at 90* the car is going around regardless. At 45* the car is going around regardless, so where exactly is this blocking occuring?
Because as far as I can see, the only time blocking would become an issue is when....the car is going spin, regardless.
JSF may have more recent info than me on this, but even the previous generation of Pirelli's were only running at operating slip angles of a couple of degrees before they started to drop off. That's even worse this year, and the high aero load would tend to reduce that itself too. Even considering 45 degrees is a waste, the car is gone by then.
ks, at 90* the car is going around regardless. At 45* the car is going around regardless, so where exactly is this blocking occuring?Because as far as I can see, the only time blocking would become an issue is when....the car is going spin, regardless.
JSF may have more recent info than me on this, but even the previous generation of Pirelli's were only running at operating slip angles of a couple of degrees before they started to drop off. That's even worse this year, and the high aero load would tend to reduce that itself too. Even considering 45 degrees is a waste, the car is gone by then.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 26th March 08:56
Crafty_ said:
There is nothing in that video or what you have said that contradicts what Symonds was talking about and I have not suggested that the Shark fin doesn't help do exactly what Newey describes in the video.We are talking cross purposes.
Lmp cars have been snappy on the limit for years, even before sharkfins. Think it's a combo of harder tyres, long wheelbase and complex aero. Higher apex speeds also mean a moment that would of been corrected into the gravel is already in the barrier.
Crafty_ said:
What Pat was pointing out is that the other half of the wing has a much slower airflow over it, reducing downforce. If the fin wasn't there it would be receiving faster airflow, but flow over the wing would be more equal than it is with the fin.
Right, and what's happening on the side of the fin that the air is hitting? It accelerates that flow rearwards and speeds it up over the other side of the rear wing instead.So now, instead of just having one side slower, you actually have one side slower, and one side faster. So bar a few percentage points lost in efficiency, you're still sending the same airflow over the rear wing.
So the downforce loss isn't a massive amount at all. It's probably not much different from the loss that yaw would generate from the endplate blockage anyway (which is now reduced slightly, because of the higher pressure area generated by the shark fin).
And since the rear wing is now wider, you have less losses in yaw than last year, in addition to which, the underfloor and diffuser are so much more powerful, rear wing downforce is a lower proportion of the overall downforce anyway, so the rear wing should matter far less in yaw, shark fin or not.
It doesn't stack up, no matter which way you approach it.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 26th March 09:07
PhillipM said:
Right, and what's happening on the side of the fin that the air is hitting? It accelerates that flow rearwards and speeds it up over the other side of the rear wing instead.
So now, instead of just having one side slower, you actually have one side slower, and one side faster. So bar a few percentage points lost in efficiency, you're still sending the same airflow over the rear wing.
So the downforce loss isn't a massive amount at all. It's probably not much different from the loss that yaw would generate from the endplate blockage anyway (which is now reduced slightly, because of the higher pressure area generated by the shark fin).
And since the rear wing is now wider, you have less losses in yaw than last year, in addition to which, the underfloor and diffuser are so much more powerful, rear wing downforce is a lower proportion of the overall downforce anyway, so the rear wing should matter far less in yaw, shark fin or not.
It doesn't stack up, no matter which way you approach it.
You're 100% correct, forget I said anything So now, instead of just having one side slower, you actually have one side slower, and one side faster. So bar a few percentage points lost in efficiency, you're still sending the same airflow over the rear wing.
So the downforce loss isn't a massive amount at all. It's probably not much different from the loss that yaw would generate from the endplate blockage anyway (which is now reduced slightly, because of the higher pressure area generated by the shark fin).
And since the rear wing is now wider, you have less losses in yaw than last year, in addition to which, the underfloor and diffuser are so much more powerful, rear wing downforce is a lower proportion of the overall downforce anyway, so the rear wing should matter far less in yaw, shark fin or not.
It doesn't stack up, no matter which way you approach it.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 26th March 09:07
budgie smuggler said:
lee_fr200 said:
Kimi just isn't in the same league though I'm afraid
Not as simple as that. Kimi needs a certain setup to excel, so does vettel. I think the balance of this Ferrari suits vet better.
Nice to see someone else win on pure pace rather than crashes or problems. I fear for the amount of overtaking throughout the season, but Melbourne has always been tricky to overtake on anyway.
Stroll didn't crash, but he was taking his time out there wasn't he? Good 6th for Massa but over a minute behind. Giovanazzi drove a super race on a difficult circuit with hardly any prep. Based on the race today I can see Bottas beating Hamilton over the year.
Stroll didn't crash, but he was taking his time out there wasn't he? Good 6th for Massa but over a minute behind. Giovanazzi drove a super race on a difficult circuit with hardly any prep. Based on the race today I can see Bottas beating Hamilton over the year.
Speed Badger said:
Based on the race today I can see Bottas beating Hamilton over the year.
I don't really see how you can come to that conclusion, Bottas was slower on the ultra softs and Hamilton never got a chance to fully exploit the soft when new because he was tucked up behind Max, he then took some time to pick up the pace, I don't know if that was him or the tyres going through a graining stage after being in Max's dirty air. Once Lewis got up to speed the only time Bottas gained was through traffic.Suggesting that Bottas will beat Hamilton in the WDC is a bit strong on that evidence.
Crafty_ said:
I don't really see how you can come to that conclusion, Bottas was slower on the ultra softs and Hamilton never got a chance to fully exploit the soft when new because he was tucked up behind Max, he then took some time to pick up the pace, I don't know if that was him or the tyres going through a graining stage after being in Max's dirty air. Once Lewis got up to speed the only time Bottas gained was through traffic.
Suggesting that Bottas will beat Hamilton in the WDC is a bit strong on that evidence.
Today was odd, I half expected hamilton to say he was carrying some sort of problem or issue, unless theres something merc dont want to publicise. He just wasnt there, he just seemed to give up, phone it in and bumble round after the dumb pit stop. Went a bit faster when bottas got close so there was some speed avaliable. Did he kill his tyres behind vestappen? Was it a setup issue? No-one else seemed to be having tyre woes.Suggesting that Bottas will beat Hamilton in the WDC is a bit strong on that evidence.
In conclusion:
This season more than any if you lead into the first corner (& then have no problems) you won't be challenged just look at Lance (who was on newer Ultra softs) vs Antonio (Super softs he started on) Lewis vs Max, the regs have produced faster cars that can't overtake one another.
On a better note I have to rate Antonio as my driver of the day a great result & debut
This season more than any if you lead into the first corner (& then have no problems) you won't be challenged just look at Lance (who was on newer Ultra softs) vs Antonio (Super softs he started on) Lewis vs Max, the regs have produced faster cars that can't overtake one another.
On a better note I have to rate Antonio as my driver of the day a great result & debut
Our new born kindly reminded me at 5:30 it was time for the F1. Wish I had just gone back to bed to be honest. I knew overtaking was going to be harder this year but that was just silly even with DRS there was hardly any over takes. Will give it a couple more races before deciding if I can be bothered to watch it.
Are we stuck with this until 2020?
Are we stuck with this until 2020?
ZX10R NIN said:
the regs have produced faster cars that can't overtake one another.
Sadly this was exactly what many drivers and team personnel said would be the case before they even drove the new cars 
I`m not writing off the season after just one race on a street circuit. It`s never been the best for overtaking anyway although I can see many races ending up one stoppers with the new tyres. Give it a few months and PH will be full of people calling for tyres that degrade quicker...
Max looked to be wringing the neck of that RedBull from the onboard footage ! Great to watch
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