The Official 2017 Australian Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
put yaw on the car and it will lose some downforce, with or without a sharkfin. They don't just develop these cars in the wind tunnel/ CFD going straight ahead you know, they do most of the aero work with yaw on the car as that's what matters most.
The edgy handling is due to the tyres, not the aero.
The edgy handling is due to the tyres, not the aero.
PhillipM said:
The aero on these cars has been setup to work in lateral slip more than straight lines for many, many years.
The shark fin reduces performance in a straight line, so if that wasn't the case nobody would use them.
No-one is suggesting the fin causes the slide.The shark fin reduces performance in a straight line, so if that wasn't the case nobody would use them.
The shark fin increases stability in corners, which is the direction of travel, it isn't going to help when the car is sliding from the rear, as the section Pat did showed.
The fin doesn't cause the slide, but makes it harder to correct once in that situation. hold a piece of card end on to the wind/air etc - even at a shallow angle (like in a corner) the air rushes past the piece of card. Now hold it face on to the air flow - the air buffets the piece of card, it hits it and goes around it. Now translate that back to the car - as the air goes around the fin, that means it can miss the rear wing.
Which if the car is that far sideways would be air missing the rear wing anyway.
However, at everything up to about 45*, the fin is actually accelerating that lateral airflow towards the rear wing and also generating lateral thrust as a result of the redirection. That is the reason it is there, because it does it at normal cornering slips and just gets more powerful as slip angles rise.
The reason it is going around is because the tyres have a greater drop off when their normal slip angles are exceeded, as a result of being both stiffer sidewalls/shoulders to cope with the extra aero loadings, wider, stiffer carcasses, and harder compounds.
However, at everything up to about 45*, the fin is actually accelerating that lateral airflow towards the rear wing and also generating lateral thrust as a result of the redirection. That is the reason it is there, because it does it at normal cornering slips and just gets more powerful as slip angles rise.
The reason it is going around is because the tyres have a greater drop off when their normal slip angles are exceeded, as a result of being both stiffer sidewalls/shoulders to cope with the extra aero loadings, wider, stiffer carcasses, and harder compounds.
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 26th March 08:23
Crafty_ said:
PhillipM said:
The aero on these cars has been setup to work in lateral slip more than straight lines for many, many years.
The shark fin reduces performance in a straight line, so if that wasn't the case nobody would use them.
No-one is suggesting the fin causes the slide.The shark fin reduces performance in a straight line, so if that wasn't the case nobody would use them.
The shark fin increases stability in corners, which is the direction of travel, it isn't going to help when the car is sliding from the rear, as the section Pat did showed.
The fin doesn't cause the slide, but makes it harder to correct once in that situation. hold a piece of card end on to the wind/air etc - even at a shallow angle (like in a corner) the air rushes past the piece of card. Now hold it face on to the air flow - the air buffets the piece of card, it hits it and goes around it. Now translate that back to the car - as the air goes around the fin, that means it can miss the rear wing.
There is no way the aero is so bad you would lose the rear grip because of that before the tyre has already gone beyond its working range.
Are they not allowed to be wrong?
If everyone in the paddock was right they'd all be employed and we'd have 20 cars side by side going over the finish line.
It's okay having sly digs at us on here compared to them - but Newey has already confirmed before that they do exactly what jsf and myself are explaining. So is Newey also wrong?
If everyone in the paddock was right they'd all be employed and we'd have 20 cars side by side going over the finish line.
It's okay having sly digs at us on here compared to them - but Newey has already confirmed before that they do exactly what jsf and myself are explaining. So is Newey also wrong?
The Vambo said:
l354uge said:
Symonds looks to be a great hire for sky.
But I was just told on here that he is wrong re shark fin 
I dont know if I should listen to the former Benneton Technical Director who has a Masters in Aerodynamics now......
https://youtu.be/SzZmAD75cRA
PhillipM said:
It's nothing to do with the shark fins, the shark fins do exactly the opposite and help to prevent spinning when the tyres are slipping
Pat Symonds disagrees with you. When the car reaches an angle of slippage, half of the rear wing is in turbulant air and stalls. There is then only half the downforce previously available from the rear wing and the car will probably spin. Apparently.
ETA: responded to the first post, hadn't seen all the similar follow ups.
Edited by suffolk009 on Sunday 26th March 08:31
suffolk009 said:
half of the rear wing is in turbulant air and stalls.
By that point most of the aero on the car has already stalled. And the tyre grip has dropped off a cliff.We've had shark fins before, they didn't cause these issues. There's a lot of series out there using them, they don't have these issues...
PhillipM said:
Are they not allowed to be wrong?
If everyone in the paddock was right they'd all be employed and we'd have 20 cars side by side going over the finish line.
It's okay having sly digs at us on here compared to them - but Newey has already confirmed before that they do exactly what jsf and myself are explaining. So is Newey also wrong?
I haven't had any "sly digs" at anyone. If everyone in the paddock was right they'd all be employed and we'd have 20 cars side by side going over the finish line.
It's okay having sly digs at us on here compared to them - but Newey has already confirmed before that they do exactly what jsf and myself are explaining. So is Newey also wrong?
What Symonds said makes complete sense to me. All you've said is that he's wrong and have not offered any reason other than "the shark fin helps in corners".
With all respect, I suspect Symonds has a bit more knowledge about whats going on than pretty much everyone here. Has Newey said, specifically, that if the car is in a slide that the shark fin has no effect or helps ?
Yes, Newey has stated that's the entire purpose of them being on the car.
I was refering to Vambo with the degree dig, not yourself - but if you can't see that it would accelerate the airflow and straighten it over the rear wing in operating slip angles, how else do you want me to explain it? You don't suddenly 'lose' the airflow, it still goes over the rear wing.
By the time a shark fin was putting 'half the rear wing in turbulance' you'd have stalled the underfloor, diffuser, lost the majority of your tyre grip and run out of steering lock a long time ago...
I was refering to Vambo with the degree dig, not yourself - but if you can't see that it would accelerate the airflow and straighten it over the rear wing in operating slip angles, how else do you want me to explain it? You don't suddenly 'lose' the airflow, it still goes over the rear wing.
By the time a shark fin was putting 'half the rear wing in turbulance' you'd have stalled the underfloor, diffuser, lost the majority of your tyre grip and run out of steering lock a long time ago...
Edited by PhillipM on Sunday 26th March 08:39
What a crap boring race with no proper overtaking!!!!
I preferred last yrs cars
Bet Hamilton is pissed off thinking he would walk it!
I actually hope vettel wins hated him at redbull but have liked him at Ferrari this last couple of yrs
Kimi just isn't in the same league though I'm afraid
I preferred last yrs cars
Bet Hamilton is pissed off thinking he would walk it!
I actually hope vettel wins hated him at redbull but have liked him at Ferrari this last couple of yrs
Kimi just isn't in the same league though I'm afraid
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