'Crash and Burn': The story of Tommy Byrne
Discussion
forsure said:
Fair points; a decade earlier James Hunt had the charm and charisma to get away with his anti-establishment, rock-star lifestyle, the paddock liked him and the media loved him.
For Byrne, pure talent alone was not enough.
It's common in many walks of life and employment. You have to be what they want you to be on the way up. Once at the top you be be yourself, if you can remember who you are of course.
mikecassie said:
As for Tommy, he was so talented.
There does seem to be an affliction with naturally gifted people, they seem to go off the rails when they get a bit of success - more so than those that have to work hard to master their craft, a few spring to mind; Alex Higgins, Jimmy White, Gazza, George Best, and for a while they can still put in the performances while partying hard, which probably further fuels their belief that they don't need to put in the hard work.Derek Smith said:
forsure said:
Fair points; a decade earlier James Hunt had the charm and charisma to get away with his anti-establishment, rock-star lifestyle, the paddock liked him and the media loved him.
For Byrne, pure talent alone was not enough.
It's common in many walks of life and employment. You have to be what they want you to be on the way up. Once at the top you be be yourself, if you can remember who you are of course.
IMHO Hunt was poor, not even a Nico Rosberg to give a modern analogy. He had some talent, that's for sure but he won a title by default and once he did he achieved nowt.
I get that he lost interest after he got his championship but in what other circumstances would he ever have gotten his WDC? He wouldn't have had.
It's almost an aside that the man was a complete arse, again IMHO but having met him in "real life".
Pickled said:
mikecassie said:
As for Tommy, he was so talented.
There does seem to be an affliction with naturally gifted people, they seem to go off the rails when they get a bit of success - more so than those that have to work hard to master their craft, a few spring to mind; Alex Higgins, Jimmy White, Gazza, George Best, and for a while they can still put in the performances while partying hard, which probably further fuels their belief that they don't need to put in the hard work.Hunt 'had some talent' - damning with faint praise I think .He was a hugely talented driver but we only saw the best of him from 73 to 77 . In lower formulae he was just another good racer but as soon as he hit F1 it was obvious he had it. I was lucky enough to be trackside for his debut win at Silverstone in Intl Trophy and I was at Brands 76. If you had suggested he was nowt special then you would have been in a minority of one, and possibly at risk of being lynched. He fell from grace quickly but he was special , and on his day could make most of the rest look like also rans .
Edited by coppice on Thursday 30th March 10:06
Pickled said:
mikecassie said:
As for Tommy, he was so talented.
There does seem to be an affliction with naturally gifted people, they seem to go off the rails when they get a bit of success - more so than those that have to work hard to master their craft, a few spring to mind; Alex Higgins, Jimmy White, Gazza, George Best, and for a while they can still put in the performances while partying hard, which probably further fuels their belief that they don't need to put in the hard work.It's easy for us mere mortals to pour scorn on their behaviours but consider any 20 year old bloke with abundant wealth at the top of their game in receipt of total adulation and it's hard to think of any that would not succumb to the temptations all that would offer.
Derek Smith said:
At the time he was quite heavily criticised in the sporting press. It was unusual. I wonder if it was something to do with the way he treated the reporters. Some did see themselves as authorities. Come to that, many readers agreed. Without the advantage of forums and other points of view it was difficult to form an educated opinion. Being an F1 driver is more than just going fast though, as many failed drivers testify. He crashed a lot. Fair enough, so did others who went onto success, but they behaved differently. Managers must have thought it just wasn't worth the aggro.
Looking back I think there was a prejudice against common as muck drivers - that's why I never succeeded, but that's another story. It was something of a gentleman's club. If you weren't part of the in crowd you had to conform to the norms. For some reason I thought John Cooper was from the wrong side of the tracks until I spoke with him.
I enjoyed the programme, but we mainly saw just the one side.
The Surtees programme was thoroughly enjoyable and rather touching.
but this is true in every walk of life. Look around the people in your office, some of them you have to wonder how they got the job ahead of you, you know that they are less skillful than you, but perhaps better at glad handing those that make decisions?Looking back I think there was a prejudice against common as muck drivers - that's why I never succeeded, but that's another story. It was something of a gentleman's club. If you weren't part of the in crowd you had to conform to the norms. For some reason I thought John Cooper was from the wrong side of the tracks until I spoke with him.
I enjoyed the programme, but we mainly saw just the one side.
The Surtees programme was thoroughly enjoyable and rather touching.
Talent, and I hate using that word because people don't have talent they have finely honed experience, is a combination of learned ability followed by perception management ( I.e. what other people think of you). You can't make it to the top of anything without copious amounts of both. However the latter, in this day and age is becoming more and more important.
Watched this the other day, and and I can only say that Byrne got everything he deserved. He came across as a typical Irish gobshyte with a huge chip on his shoulder, and a nasty word for anyone in authority. The comparison with Senna sums it up best when it's shown Senna (and his contemporaries) studying the race track etc while Byrne is out galavanting with pimps prostitutes and drug dealers. Even the people being interviewed struggled to say something nice about him.
The man was a waste of good talent, what an a
hole.
The man was a waste of good talent, what an a
hole.Galileo said:
Watched this the other day, and and I can only say that Byrne got everything he deserved. He came across as a typical Irish gobshyte with a huge chip on his shoulder, and a nasty word for anyone in authority. The comparison with Senna sums it up best when it's shown Senna (and his contemporaries) studying the race track etc while Byrne is out galavanting with pimps prostitutes and drug dealers. Even the people being interviewed struggled to say something nice about him.
The man was a waste of good talent, what an ahole.
Even in his podcast the guy can't string an interesting sentence together, age didn't improve him. In a similar vein, blundells podcast is rubbish as well. The man was a waste of good talent, what an a
hole.Indisputably he was a "rough Diamond".
Had this happened 20 years later, someone would have taken him aside & "refined" (for want of a better word) him, knowing how much it could be in their interests (as well as his) to so do.
I think there are several instances quoted in the programme where his talent was massively apparent ( one highlight being the McLaren F1 test, and the highly pressurised success he had to achieve to create the opportunity ) One good aspect of his don't give a - - - - personality being that he seemed to be totally impervious to pressure.
If you compare him to Eddie Irvine, Eddie walked the walk (up to a point) but was savvy enough to take advantage (and more) of what talent he had.
Tommy was much too "basic" (rough if you like/insist ) to have even begun to do so, I cannot fathom how (even in that era ) no-one tried to take him under their wing. He had a pretty incredible ability to survive/continue, but, "just" missed out on that final step so often . . . . . . .
Perhaps he lacked a Mentor because he was too pigheaded to listen ( even if anyone tried to guide him ) still, a bit of a shame it never happened. A latter day James Hunt would have been a fine personality to brighten up that F1 era.
Had this happened 20 years later, someone would have taken him aside & "refined" (for want of a better word) him, knowing how much it could be in their interests (as well as his) to so do.
I think there are several instances quoted in the programme where his talent was massively apparent ( one highlight being the McLaren F1 test, and the highly pressurised success he had to achieve to create the opportunity ) One good aspect of his don't give a - - - - personality being that he seemed to be totally impervious to pressure.
If you compare him to Eddie Irvine, Eddie walked the walk (up to a point) but was savvy enough to take advantage (and more) of what talent he had.
Tommy was much too "basic" (rough if you like/insist ) to have even begun to do so, I cannot fathom how (even in that era ) no-one tried to take him under their wing. He had a pretty incredible ability to survive/continue, but, "just" missed out on that final step so often . . . . . . .
Perhaps he lacked a Mentor because he was too pigheaded to listen ( even if anyone tried to guide him ) still, a bit of a shame it never happened. A latter day James Hunt would have been a fine personality to brighten up that F1 era.
Edited by the other me on Sunday 2nd April 22:57
We live in such different times now ; go to most single seater races and the paddock is full of little more than kids whose dads have been cossetting them for a decade or more. Back then the paddock felt a much tougher and more adult place , with drivers being significantly older, and solely reliant on their own ducking and diving to keep racing. There were a lot of people around who were rough diamonds like TB , I knew one well and although he never had the speed of TB he won some races and so much of TB's attitude was very familiar .
coppice said:
We live in such different times now ; go to most single seater races and the paddock is full of little more than kids whose dads have been cossetting them for a decade or more. Back then the paddock felt a much tougher and more adult place , with drivers being significantly older, and solely reliant on their own ducking and diving to keep racing. There were a lot of people around who were rough diamonds like TB , I knew one well and although he never had the speed of TB he won some races and so much of TB's attitude was very familiar .
Very true. People like Dave Coyne, Karl Jones, Johnny Oxborrow, and others whose names I've long forgotten formed the backbone of the paddock in those days. There were fewer wealthy overseas drivers too. I read the book a few years ago purely because this was an Irish driver I couldn't recall and thought it was an entertaining read. The documentary was slightly less entertaining due to being, understandably, directed; Tommy in a bar bemoaning the establishment. The pieces by other drivers was very interesting; but the part I'm embarrassed most about is how I actually agree with Eddy Jordan on his take on Tommy. For an informed counter piece have a look a another site (sounds like sitpass) puts a different perspective on Byrnes ability and missed opportunities.
Edited by Neil O on Monday 8th May 16:36
The sport is full of shoulda woulda couldas and whilst Byrne is one of the more likely suspects to have made it , the fact is he didn't and his very limited F1 experience isn't enough to assume he was going to be the second coming. There are endless drivers who were invincible in lower formulae but didn't cut it in F1 - and of those who were so-so lower down but brilliant in F1 .
Byrne looked supreme when I saw him win in F3 - but so did Jan Magnussen and Dave Walker.
Byrne looked supreme when I saw him win in F3 - but so did Jan Magnussen and Dave Walker.
Thanks for the heads up for the article on pitpass https://www.pitpass.com/58775/Self-Immolation
America tends to offer a lifeline to Europeans. The fact he couldn't even move up to Indycars because nobody would touch him despite being strong in Indy Lights for a couple of years says it all.
America tends to offer a lifeline to Europeans. The fact he couldn't even move up to Indycars because nobody would touch him despite being strong in Indy Lights for a couple of years says it all.
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