Official 2024 Australian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[jm doc]

carlo996 said:

HardtopManual said:

paulguitar said:

carlo996 said:

Nah. It just fits your narrative.

What are you disagreeing with, specifically?

Just ignore, there's no point discussing something with someone who denies basic facts.

Yes, it’s really difficult to accept a different POV, I’ll ignore. It’s like some of you never actually watched F1 over a few decades.

Still wriggled out of answering the question 996:

paulguitar said:
It's one race, and therefore a significant stretch.


The Mercedes era included three seasons with Hamilton and Rosberg racing each other, two seasons of Hamilton racing competitive Ferraris and one season of Hamilton racing Verstappen (who was awarded the WDC). Nothing involving 'rose tints', merely facts.

996:
Nah. It just fits your narrative.


What specifically did you disagree with in the response??

[carinaman]

maz8062 said:

Yes Alonso is embarrassed as are his fans but that’s exactly what he did and there’s no hiding - it’s all there in the telemetry.

I've not forgotten Alonso's past and because of his driving, competiveness and praise from pundits had recently regarded him as a great driver and strategist whose talent was being wasted in uncompetitive cars, but that stunt at the last race has really put me off.

[Forester1965]

carinaman said:

I've not forgotten Alonso's past and had regarded his as a great driver and strategist whose talent was being wasted in uncompetitive cars, but that stunt at the last race has really put me off.

He's an impulsive person and that's almost certainly cost him multiple world championships by being in the wrong team at the wrong time.

[Piginapoke]

Forester1965 said:

carinaman said:

I've not forgotten Alonso's past and had regarded his as a great driver and strategist whose talent was being wasted in uncompetitive cars, but that stunt at the last race has really put me off.

He's an impulsive person and that's almost certainly cost him multiple world championships by being in the wrong team at the wrong time.

I’ve never really got past Singapore 2008, I can’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it. Then the whole blackmailing Ron Dennis was a bad look in 2007.

For me, it was a reckless and dangerous brake test by Alonso, and the data (plus all the BS on the radio afterwards about the throttle problem) shows it for what it was. I think the stewards bottled it and he needed a race ban at least.

[NRS]

Bo_apex said:

NRS said:

Bo_apex said:

Would it still be "wrong" if Ham had done the same while trying to keep Rus behind ?

F1 is becoming Disney.

It’s been Disney for a while, just as it benefitted Max you didn’t care.

The issue is if you allow people to move around/do unpredictable stuff it ruins racing as you have no idea what to expect. How do you pass someone on the straight if someone can weave as much as they want, forcing the driver behind to have to slam on the brakes for example? Same with corners, if someone is trying to get into position and the person in front can brake check then it makes passing impossible.

Oh dear. Thread derail.

FIA needs to clarify "necessary" threshold.

and introduce rear brake lights

Thread derail? What did you disagree with? You say it will kill racing to stop drivers doing unpredictable things. I say doing stuff like jumping on the brakes, speeding up again then braking again will make it harder to pass as you have no idea what the person ahead will do. In a fast corner when humans from memory have a 0.3 second reaction time (lights at the start of a race) it’s going to cause accidents and stop people try to pass if it’s 50:50 as the defending driver can always do something random forcing the person behind to have to bail out.

[Wills2]

jm doc said:

carlo996 said:

HardtopManual said:

paulguitar said:

carlo996 said:

Nah. It just fits your narrative.

What are you disagreeing with, specifically?

Just ignore, there's no point discussing something with someone who denies basic facts.

Yes, it’s really difficult to accept a different POV, I’ll ignore. It’s like some of you never actually watched F1 over a few decades.

Still wriggled out of answering the question 996:

paulguitar said:
It's one race, and therefore a significant stretch.


The Mercedes era included three seasons with Hamilton and Rosberg racing each other, two seasons of Hamilton racing competitive Ferraris and one season of Hamilton racing Verstappen (who was awarded the WDC). Nothing involving 'rose tints', merely facts.

996:
Nah. It just fits your narrative.


What specifically did you disagree with in the response??

Carlo doesn't have an alternative POV, he has "alternative facts" rendering all discussion moot.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Piginapoke said:

Forester1965 said:

carinaman said:

I've not forgotten Alonso's past and had regarded his as a great driver and strategist whose talent was being wasted in uncompetitive cars, but that stunt at the last race has really put me off.

He's an impulsive person and that's almost certainly cost him multiple world championships by being in the wrong team at the wrong time.

I’ve never really got past Singapore 2008, I can’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it. Then the whole blackmailing Ron Dennis was a bad look in 2007.

For me, it was a reckless and dangerous brake test by Alonso, and the data (plus all the BS on the radio afterwards about the throttle problem) shows it for what it was. I think the stewards bottled it and he needed a race ban at least.

Couldn’t agree more. His past bullsttery and skullduggery tells us everything we need to know about him.

[maz8062]

Likes Fast Cars said:

Piginapoke said:

Forester1965 said:

carinaman said:

I've not forgotten Alonso's past and had regarded his as a great driver and strategist whose talent was being wasted in uncompetitive cars, but that stunt at the last race has really put me off.

He's an impulsive person and that's almost certainly cost him multiple world championships by being in the wrong team at the wrong time.

I’ve never really got past Singapore 2008, I can’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it. Then the whole blackmailing Ron Dennis was a bad look in 2007.

For me, it was a reckless and dangerous brake test by Alonso, and the data (plus all the BS on the radio afterwards about the throttle problem) shows it for what it was. I think the stewards bottled it and he needed a race ban at least.

Couldn’t agree more. His past bullsttery and skullduggery tells us everything we need to know about him.

Some commentators including Palmer are falling over themselves trying to excuse the blatant brake test. “He didn’t mean it” they say, or GR fell off the road by himself and, if that doesn’t convince us, “what about when xxx did it” or when he used to brake test as a part of his skill. All BS of course. If Max, LH, SV or practically anyone else did that the same commentators will be baying for blood.

[Byker28i]

jm doc said:

TheDeuce said:

Forester1965 said:

Bo_apex said:

Agree they cannot be prevented. But Ham got rattled at the previous corners.

The Copse punt was highly accurate and highly effective. Do you believe it was a mistake ?

Yes and no. It looked impulsive and I suspect he wanted to put Verstappen in the position of either back off or we're going to crash. It wasn't the first or last time he tried into that corner, though. If I remember correctly Leclerc was rather more for letting him through.

Hamilton deserved his penalty.

Yes I think that's fair. And of course in that particular example there was tit for tat in the background that entire season. If Lewis didn't stand up to Max then Max would continue the same 'back out or crash' tactic himself. The championship was very tight and there was a lot at play surrounding that one incident.

I suspect Lewis knew there was a good chance what did happen, could happen. I can understand the phycological reasons for (literally) not giving a spare inch to Max, but nonetheless it was his decision to play that game with Max and it went wrong, he deserved the penalty. As has Max deserved it when he has driven so defensively and it's 'gone wrong'. I don't blame either for driving that hard that season, I also don't blame the stewards for calling it when the st hits the fan.

Actually, the stewards decided that there was blame on both sides. Hamilton had nowhere to go and Max had acres of runoff to his left.

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

[Byker28i]

carinaman said:

maz8062 said:

Yes Alonso is embarrassed as are his fans but that’s exactly what he did and there’s no hiding - it’s all there in the telemetry.

I've not forgotten Alonso's past and because of his driving, competiveness and praise from pundits had recently regarded him as a great driver and strategist whose talent was being wasted in uncompetitive cars, but that stunt at the last race has really put me off.

I've not forgotten or forgiven Alonsos past.

I refer the honourable gentleman to

Byker28i said:

I can't think of any other driver knowingly given a win by having his team mate crash.
I can't think of any other driver throwing his toys out the cot and blackmailing his team leader unless he deliberately knobbled his younger team mates car who was showing him up/ gave him preferential treatment to the detriment of his younger team mate.
Who then went to the FIA in a strop and ruined the whole team, biggest fine ever etc...

Thats before we get to his 'racecraft' or 'positioning' and late moves to stop himself being overtaken. He walks the line in a lot of races

[MarkwG]

Byker28i said:

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

I agree with your analysis, but don't think Hamilton thought Verstappen would give him space: I think it's more like he'd had enough of Verstappens "move or we crash" attitude, so called him on it, & so into the cat litter he went. Not malicious, just "if you play hard, I play hard" racing, but no argument from me with the stewards decision, they held Hamilton mostly responsible for the collision, as he could have backed out of it. Verstappen was notably more circumspect around him afterwards, IIRC. Perhaps we'll find out which it was in the eventual book

[PhilAsia]

MarkwG said:

Byker28i said:

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

I agree with your analysis, but don't think Hamilton thought Verstappen would give him space: I think it's more like he'd had enough of Verstappens "move or we crash" attitude, so called him on it, & so into the cat litter he went. Not malicious, just "if you play hard, I play hard" racing, but no argument from me with the stewards decision, they held Hamilton mostly responsible for the collision, as he could have backed out of it. Verstappen was notably more circumspect around him afterwards, IIRC. Perhaps we'll find out which it was in the eventual book

Not sure the "Red Bull Hat" and "Off To The Favelas" moments support that..., although they were instigated at a point where Max knew that Lewis was potentially going to score more points than him.

[jm doc]

MarkwG said:

Byker28i said:

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

I agree with your analysis, but don't think Hamilton thought Verstappen would give him space: I think it's more like he'd had enough of Verstappens "move or we crash" attitude, so called him on it, & so into the cat litter he went. Not malicious, just "if you play hard, I play hard" racing, but no argument from me with the stewards decision, they held Hamilton mostly responsible for the collision, as he could have backed out of it. Verstappen was notably more circumspect around him afterwards, IIRC. Perhaps we'll find out which it was in the eventual book

I actually agree with both of you that Lewis was within his rights to be where he was and he was there to put Max under pressure. Max had a choice, go wide or stay in tight. He chose to stay in and he made contact with Lewis as a result.

However, my post was just to point out that the stewards did apportion blame to Max as well though in my view Max was wholly to blame!

[MarkwG]

PhilAsia said:

MarkwG said:

Byker28i said:

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

I agree with your analysis, but don't think Hamilton thought Verstappen would give him space: I think it's more like he'd had enough of Verstappens "move or we crash" attitude, so called him on it, & so into the cat litter he went. Not malicious, just "if you play hard, I play hard" racing, but no argument from me with the stewards decision, they held Hamilton mostly responsible for the collision, as he could have backed out of it. Verstappen was notably more circumspect around him afterwards, IIRC. Perhaps we'll find out which it was in the eventual book

Not sure the "Red Bull Hat" and "Off To The Favelas" moments support that..., although they were instigated at a point where Max knew that Lewis was potentially going to score more points than him.

Good points, perhaps I'm giving him too much credit...

[Orchardab]

MarkwG said:

PhilAsia said:

MarkwG said:

Byker28i said:

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

I agree with your analysis, but don't think Hamilton thought Verstappen would give him space: I think it's more like he'd had enough of Verstappens "move or we crash" attitude, so called him on it, & so into the cat litter he went. Not malicious, just "if you play hard, I play hard" racing, but no argument from me with the stewards decision, they held Hamilton mostly responsible for the collision, as he could have backed out of it. Verstappen was notably more circumspect around him afterwards, IIRC. Perhaps we'll find out which it was in the eventual book

Not sure the "Red Bull Hat" and "Off To The Favelas" moments support that..., although they were instigated at a point where Max knew that Lewis was potentially going to score more points than him.

Good points, perhaps I'm giving him too much credit...

I wonder if Fez will dial out the understeer in GOATS car next season. He was like a crash magnet last season.

[heebeegeetee]

The onboards of Silverstone 21 show two drivers all but neck and neck heading into possibly the fastest corner on the calendar. It was proper motor racing, and no penalty was needed. None at Monza same year either imo.

No penalties would have been awarded in past decades, only in this modern Disney/Netflix era is it where penalties are discussed as much as the racing. Probably more than the racing in fact.

[heebeegeetee]

Piginapoke said:

I’ve never really got past Singapore 2008, I can’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it.

If you can find the footage of when Alonso and Briatore meet immediately after the race, before the podium ceremony iirc, you can see that Alonso is immediately open about it being the crash that got him the win, he's completely open about it.

I think he would have kept quiet had he been involved. With something like that, I think there's no need to tell anyone who doesn't need to know.

[paulguitar]

heebeegeetee said:

Piginapoke said:

I’ve never really got past Singapore 2008, I can’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it.

If you can find the footage of when Alonso and Briatore meet immediately after the race, before the podium ceremony iirc, you can see that Alonso is immediately open about it being the crash that got him the win, he's completely open about it.

I think he would have kept quiet had he been involved. With something like that, I think there's no need to tell anyone who doesn't need to know.

But surely a man of Alonso's intelligence would have had issues with the bizarre and illogical fuel strategy he was on?

[MarkwG]

Orchardab said:

MarkwG said:

PhilAsia said:

MarkwG said:

Byker28i said:

Strictly speaking the onboards showed Lewis was level alongside going into the corner, Max tried braking later and cutting off Lewis but heading for the apex, but hadn't fully cleared Lewis. You see it the moment he turned the wheel trying to squeeze Lewis as he's done for several laps/corners before, but Lewis was level this time and didn't back out as before, thinking Max would give him space. Hence why many think the Hamilton penalty was wrong, but accepted the stewards decision.
We didn't accept whinger Horny spice claiming Lewis had tried to kill Max

I agree with your analysis, but don't think Hamilton thought Verstappen would give him space: I think it's more like he'd had enough of Verstappens "move or we crash" attitude, so called him on it, & so into the cat litter he went. Not malicious, just "if you play hard, I play hard" racing, but no argument from me with the stewards decision, they held Hamilton mostly responsible for the collision, as he could have backed out of it. Verstappen was notably more circumspect around him afterwards, IIRC. Perhaps we'll find out which it was in the eventual book

Not sure the "Red Bull Hat" and "Off To The Favelas" moments support that..., although they were instigated at a point where Max knew that Lewis was potentially going to score more points than him.

Good points, perhaps I'm giving him too much credit...

I wonder if Fez will dial out the understeer in GOATS car next season. He was like a crash magnet last season.

Your data to support that is..?

[isaldiri]

heebeegeetee said:

Piginapoke said:

I’ve never really got past Singapore 2008, I can’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it.

If you can find the footage of when Alonso and Briatore meet immediately after the race, before the podium ceremony iirc, you can see that Alonso is immediately open about it being the crash that got him the win, he's completely open about it.

I think he would have kept quiet had he been involved. With something like that, I think there's no need to tell anyone who doesn't need to know.

Ah cmon of course Alonso was in on it. He has long been known for having a superb racing brain, there is no way he would have not called the pitwall lunatics for calling him in so early otherwise.