Discussion
Is Max really quite the uberwunderkind he’s made out to be? Vettel used to be fêted as similar, but his post-RBR career had rather taken the shine off of that reputation. Ricciardo beat Vettel and was on a par with Max (as was Sainz).
Perez’s earlier record is flattered by his ability to nurse tyres. In flat out head to head racing he’s seldom been a top contender. Max can easily take several tenths per lap out of him.
Frankly I’d be in favour of a handicap system as used in the heyday of BTCC. The true technical innovators will most likely develop past the handicap, whereas the vagaries of things like engines will to an extent be neutralised.
Grand Prix developed as long form races to test the speed and reliability of cars. In an era where reliability is no longer a material issue we need to think again.
Perez’s earlier record is flattered by his ability to nurse tyres. In flat out head to head racing he’s seldom been a top contender. Max can easily take several tenths per lap out of him.
Frankly I’d be in favour of a handicap system as used in the heyday of BTCC. The true technical innovators will most likely develop past the handicap, whereas the vagaries of things like engines will to an extent be neutralised.
Grand Prix developed as long form races to test the speed and reliability of cars. In an era where reliability is no longer a material issue we need to think again.
skwdenyer said:
Is Max really quite the uberwunderkind he’s made out to be?
Very hard to know. He's doing a great job, but for the last two and a half years he's mostly only had to beat one other car, and it's driven by Sergio Perez.Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
Edited by paulguitar on Monday 22 April 16:37
paulguitar said:
skwdenyer said:
Is Max really quite the uberwunderkind he’s made out to be?
Very hard to know. He's doing a grat job, but for the last two and a half years he's mostly only had to beat one other car, and it's driven by Sergio Perez.Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
Bo_apex said:
paulguitar said:
skwdenyer said:
Is Max really quite the uberwunderkind he’s made out to be?
Very hard to know. He's doing a grat job, but for the last two and a half years he's mostly only had to beat one other car, and it's driven by Sergio Perez.Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
paulguitar said:
Very hard to know. He's doing a great job, but for the last two and a half years he's mostly only had to beat one other car, and it's driven by Sergio Perez.
Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
I think he’s matured, but there’s no doubt that being in such a dominant car allows him to take a more measured approach when under pressure. I’d like to see Sainz in the other RB, it would maybe reduce the boredom a little.
Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
I think he’s matured, but there’s no doubt that being in such a dominant car allows him to take a more measured approach when under pressure. I’d like to see Sainz in the other RB, it would maybe reduce the boredom a little.
Edited by paulguitar on Monday 22 April 16:37
Verstappen's tactics in wheel to wheel racing are simple; he overtly pushes cars off the track, risking a penalty, to make clear that's what he'll do every time. It puts off more timid racers who don't want to risk an off or collision. It tells close competitors that you can risk an overtake, but there's a good chance your race is over if you try it and it fails.
To stop that approach from working, you either have to punish it by the regulations to the point it no longer works (see AD '21) or the other drivers have to be equally as ruthless (see Hamilton multiple times in '21).
Bullies only respond to either being bullied back or the teacher taking their train set away. Otherwise they'll just keep doing it.
Other than that aspect of Verstappen's driving (which he shares with Senna, Schumacher and Alonso off the top of my head), he's an absolute monster of a racing driver and almost certainly in the top 5 I've ever seen.
To stop that approach from working, you either have to punish it by the regulations to the point it no longer works (see AD '21) or the other drivers have to be equally as ruthless (see Hamilton multiple times in '21).
Bullies only respond to either being bullied back or the teacher taking their train set away. Otherwise they'll just keep doing it.
Other than that aspect of Verstappen's driving (which he shares with Senna, Schumacher and Alonso off the top of my head), he's an absolute monster of a racing driver and almost certainly in the top 5 I've ever seen.
Blue62 said:
paulguitar said:
Very hard to know. He's doing a great job, but for the last two and a half years he's mostly only had to beat one other car, and it's driven by Sergio Perez.
Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
I think he’s matured, but there’s no doubt that being in such a dominant car allows him to take a more measured approach when under pressure. I’d like to see Sainz in the other RB, it would maybe reduce the boredom a little.
Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
I think he’s matured, but there’s no doubt that being in such a dominant car allows him to take a more measured approach when under pressure. I’d like to see Sainz in the other RB, it would maybe reduce the boredom a little.
Edited by paulguitar on Monday 22 April 16:37
Forester1965 said:
Verstappen's tactics in wheel to wheel racing are simple; he overtly pushes cars off the track, risking a penalty, to make clear that's what he'll do every time. It puts off more timid racers who don't want to risk an off or collision. It tells close competitors that you can risk an overtake, but there's a good chance your race is over if you try it and it fails.
To stop that approach from working, you either have to punish it by the regulations to the point it no longer works (see AD '21) or the other drivers have to be equally as ruthless (see Hamilton multiple times in '21).
Bullies only respond to either being bullied back or the teacher taking their train set away. Otherwise they'll just keep doing it.
Other than that aspect of Verstappen's driving (which he shares with Senna, Schumacher and Alonso off the top of my head), he's an absolute monster of a racing driver and almost certainly in the top 5 I've ever seen.
I wouldn't include Alonso in that group of amoral drivers, even accounting for his dodgy actions in Oz a few weeks ago. I think on the whole he's considered to have been pretty fair throughout his career.To stop that approach from working, you either have to punish it by the regulations to the point it no longer works (see AD '21) or the other drivers have to be equally as ruthless (see Hamilton multiple times in '21).
Bullies only respond to either being bullied back or the teacher taking their train set away. Otherwise they'll just keep doing it.
Other than that aspect of Verstappen's driving (which he shares with Senna, Schumacher and Alonso off the top of my head), he's an absolute monster of a racing driver and almost certainly in the top 5 I've ever seen.
Verstappen is not yet top 5 for me. We need to see him racing other cars first. That doesn't detract from how great a job he is doing a the moment, but really I think at least half a dozen other drivers would be doing the same with a similar huge pace advantage and journeyman teammate setup.
.
deadslow said:
the pupil has now become the master. In the sprint race on Saturday you could almost hear Hamilton's head explode with stress when they told him he was about to receive a Maxattack.
Nonsense, he'd have known as well as we all did that Verstappen would waltz past him in a handful of laps.He didn't even particularly put up a fight. What would be the point?
paulguitar said:
I wouldn't include Alonso in that group of amoral drivers, even accounting for his dodgy actions in Oz a few weeks ago. I think on the whole he's considered to have been pretty fair throughout his career.
Verstappen is not yet top 5 for me. We need to see him racing other cars first. That doesn't detract from how great a job he is doing a the moment, but really I think at least half a dozen other drivers would be doing the same with a similar huge pace advantage and journeyman teammate setup.
.
The same Alonso who blocked Hamilton's attempt to leave the pits in Hungary 2007? The one who tried to blackmail his boss? The same one who knew he won in Singapore by cheating but said nothing? Are those the acts typically associated with those of a fair person?Verstappen is not yet top 5 for me. We need to see him racing other cars first. That doesn't detract from how great a job he is doing a the moment, but really I think at least half a dozen other drivers would be doing the same with a similar huge pace advantage and journeyman teammate setup.
.
paulguitar said:
deadslow said:
the pupil has now become the master. In the sprint race on Saturday you could almost hear Hamilton's head explode with stress when they told him he was about to receive a Maxattack.
Nonsense, he'd have known as well as we all did that Verstappen would waltz past him in a handful of laps.He didn't even particularly put up a fight. What would be the point?
Forester1965 said:
paulguitar said:
I wouldn't include Alonso in that group of amoral drivers, even accounting for his dodgy actions in Oz a few weeks ago. I think on the whole he's considered to have been pretty fair throughout his career.
Verstappen is not yet top 5 for me. We need to see him racing other cars first. That doesn't detract from how great a job he is doing a the moment, but really I think at least half a dozen other drivers would be doing the same with a similar huge pace advantage and journeyman teammate setup.
The same Alonso who blocked Hamilton's attempt to leave the pits in Hungary 2007? The one who tried to blackmail his boss? The same one who knew he won in Singapore by cheating but said nothing? Are those the acts typically associated with those of a fair person?Verstappen is not yet top 5 for me. We need to see him racing other cars first. That doesn't detract from how great a job he is doing a the moment, but really I think at least half a dozen other drivers would be doing the same with a similar huge pace advantage and journeyman teammate setup.
Forester1965 said:
The same Alonso who blocked Hamilton's attempt to leave the pits in Hungary 2007? The one who tried to blackmail his boss? The same one who knew he won in Singapore by cheating but said nothing? Are those the acts typically associated with those of a fair person?
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…skwdenyer said:
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…
It would be pretty amazing if he agreed to go along with a whackjob fuel strategy if he didn't have an inkling as to why. skwdenyer said:
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…
I'm sure his boss (and manager, to this day) and then technical director and team mate all knew about it but said nothing to him at any point either before or for years afterwards until he was thoroughly shocked by the news when it came out.I may or may not be being sarcastic.
skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
The same Alonso who blocked Hamilton's attempt to leave the pits in Hungary 2007? The one who tried to blackmail his boss? The same one who knew he won in Singapore by cheating but said nothing? Are those the acts typically associated with those of a fair person?
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…paulguitar said:
skwdenyer said:
Is Max really quite the uberwunderkind he’s made out to be?
Very hard to know. He's doing a great job, but for the last two and a half years he's mostly only had to beat one other car, and it's driven by Sergio Perez.Back when he had competition he was rather prone to errors and often struggled to race wheel to wheel without resorting to unacceptable shenanigans.
Edited by paulguitar on Monday 22 April 16:37
Nobody else has had this level of domination before. There's a reason for that and it's not all car related.
I'd be hugely surprised if he went to another team and dropped down a personal performance level.
It's a little like saying that several others would have been 6 times WDC instead of Hamilton, if they'd been in the Mercedes seat in 2014-2020. Some would, but probably a surprisingly small number.
Muzzer79 said:
skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
The same Alonso who blocked Hamilton's attempt to leave the pits in Hungary 2007? The one who tried to blackmail his boss? The same one who knew he won in Singapore by cheating but said nothing? Are those the acts typically associated with those of a fair person?
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…
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