Discussion
Muzzer79 said:
I think you can't write off the success MV has had so easily.
Nobody else has had this level of domination before. There's a reason for that and it's not all car related.
I'd be hugely surprised if he went to another team and dropped down a personal performance level.
It's a little like saying that several others would have been 6 times WDC instead of Hamilton, if they'd been in the Mercedes seat in 2014-2020. Some would, but probably a surprisingly small number.
He’s doing an immaculate job, certainly. But the car advantage is truly colossal and the only other car effectively in the same category is driven by Perez. Nobody else has had this level of domination before. There's a reason for that and it's not all car related.
I'd be hugely surprised if he went to another team and dropped down a personal performance level.
It's a little like saying that several others would have been 6 times WDC instead of Hamilton, if they'd been in the Mercedes seat in 2014-2020. Some would, but probably a surprisingly small number.
paulguitar said:
Muzzer79 said:
I think you can't write off the success MV has had so easily.
Nobody else has had this level of domination before. There's a reason for that and it's not all car related.
I'd be hugely surprised if he went to another team and dropped down a personal performance level.
It's a little like saying that several others would have been 6 times WDC instead of Hamilton, if they'd been in the Mercedes seat in 2014-2020. Some would, but probably a surprisingly small number.
He’s doing an immaculate job, certainly. But the car advantage is truly colossal and the only other car effectively in the same category is driven by Perez. Nobody else has had this level of domination before. There's a reason for that and it's not all car related.
I'd be hugely surprised if he went to another team and dropped down a personal performance level.
It's a little like saying that several others would have been 6 times WDC instead of Hamilton, if they'd been in the Mercedes seat in 2014-2020. Some would, but probably a surprisingly small number.
Looking at Perez's record against his other team-mates, plus Verstappen's record against his other team-mates, logic dictates that MV has something the others don't.
Conspiracy theories about his team-mates not being allowed to win or the car being designed just for him are just that - conspiracy theories.
I too wouldn't put Max in the top 5 yet - he needs to change teams to sit at that table, but his success is not all car related.
Muzzer79 said:
And Perez is no Jim Clark. But he's also not Nikita Mazepin - he's a decent peddler.
Looking at Perez's record against his other team-mates, plus Verstappen's record against his other team-mates, logic dictates that MV has something the others don't.
Conspiracy theories about his team-mates not being allowed to win or the car being designed just for him are just that - conspiracy theories.
I too wouldn't put Max in the top 5 yet - he needs to change teams to sit at that table, but his success is not all car related.
Nothing I'd quarrel with there.Looking at Perez's record against his other team-mates, plus Verstappen's record against his other team-mates, logic dictates that MV has something the others don't.
Conspiracy theories about his team-mates not being allowed to win or the car being designed just for him are just that - conspiracy theories.
I too wouldn't put Max in the top 5 yet - he needs to change teams to sit at that table, but his success is not all car related.
paulguitar said:
skwdenyer said:
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…
It would be pretty amazing if he agreed to go along with a whackjob fuel strategy if he didn't have an inkling as to why. Or, put another way, their fuel strategy was almost the same as Alonso’s. Alonso’s strategy wasn’t a major outlier. Pitting 1/2 laps before others on the same strategy was easily explainable to Alonso as he was not making headway in the traffic around him - putting for free air made sense when in the window (lap 12 was in the window).
In terms of why Alonso would go along with this approach, he qualified badly (due to a fuel feed issue) despite topping practice. He was fast but out of position. A light load + supersofts would allow him to try to make up positions in the early laps. And, as said, it wasn’t whacky for a two-stop race, and he wasn’t the only one on a two-stopper.
skwdenyer said:
paulguitar said:
skwdenyer said:
You have conclusive proof he knew of the cheating in Singapore? Otherwise you might want to be a touch careful with your and PH’s legal position on that one…
It would be pretty amazing if he agreed to go along with a whackjob fuel strategy if he didn't have an inkling as to why. Or, put another way, their fuel strategy was almost the same as Alonso’s. Alonso’s strategy wasn’t a major outlier. Pitting 1/2 laps before others on the same strategy was easily explainable to Alonso as he was not making headway in the traffic around him - putting for free air made sense when in the window (lap 12 was in the window).
In terms of why Alonso would go along with this approach, he qualified badly (due to a fuel feed issue) despite topping practice. He was fast but out of position. A light load + supersofts would allow him to try to make up positions in the early laps. And, as said, it wasn’t whacky for a two-stop race, and he wasn’t the only one on a two-stopper.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
From the 11 non victories that Max has 'suffered', how many were mechanical failure not attributes to outside forces (hitting kerbs/walls or being hit by other cars)?
Like him or loathe him, Max is something special in an F1 car. To pull out the faps he does in such a short space of time whether against Checo or anyone else, is just phenomenal. Nico Rosberg rightly placed him in the top 5 drivers of all time yesterday. Hard to argue against that.
Does it make for interesting racing? No, obviously not. But all the teams have the same design brief. Just not every team has an Adrian Newey.
Off top of my head I think he's had two DNFs in Australia.... can't remember any others?Like him or loathe him, Max is something special in an F1 car. To pull out the faps he does in such a short space of time whether against Checo or anyone else, is just phenomenal. Nico Rosberg rightly placed him in the top 5 drivers of all time yesterday. Hard to argue against that.
Does it make for interesting racing? No, obviously not. But all the teams have the same design brief. Just not every team has an Adrian Newey.
paulguitar said:
Forester1965 said:
Verstappen's tactics in wheel to wheel racing are simple; he overtly pushes cars off the track, risking a penalty, to make clear that's what he'll do every time. It puts off more timid racers who don't want to risk an off or collision. It tells close competitors that you can risk an overtake, but there's a good chance your race is over if you try it and it fails.
To stop that approach from working, you either have to punish it by the regulations to the point it no longer works (see AD '21) or the other drivers have to be equally as ruthless (see Hamilton multiple times in '21).
Bullies only respond to either being bullied back or the teacher taking their train set away. Otherwise they'll just keep doing it.
Other than that aspect of Verstappen's driving (which he shares with Senna, Schumacher and Alonso off the top of my head), he's an absolute monster of a racing driver and almost certainly in the top 5 I've ever seen.
I wouldn't include Alonso in that group of amoral drivers, even accounting for his dodgy actions in Oz a few weeks ago. I think on the whole he's considered to have been pretty fair throughout his career.To stop that approach from working, you either have to punish it by the regulations to the point it no longer works (see AD '21) or the other drivers have to be equally as ruthless (see Hamilton multiple times in '21).
Bullies only respond to either being bullied back or the teacher taking their train set away. Otherwise they'll just keep doing it.
Other than that aspect of Verstappen's driving (which he shares with Senna, Schumacher and Alonso off the top of my head), he's an absolute monster of a racing driver and almost certainly in the top 5 I've ever seen.
Verstappen is not yet top 5 for me. We need to see him racing other cars first. That doesn't detract from how great a job he is doing a the moment, but really I think at least half a dozen other drivers would be doing the same with a similar huge pace advantage and journeyman teammate setup.
.
Max raced against a fast Mercedes during 2021.
He has also kept faster cars behind him to win. Such as 2016 with Kimi Ferrari up his chuff IIRC. Max was about 13 years old.
Found it:
Mark Hughes recalls his debut victory in 2016, which was so tense it gave his father a nosebleed and saw him hailed as the “talent of the century".
Edited by Bo_apex on Monday 22 April 17:50
Bo_apex said:
Brilliant
Max raced a fast Mercedes during 2021.
He has also kept faster cars behind him to win. Such as 2016 with Kimi Ferrari up his chuff IIRC. Max was about 13 years old.
He's very fast.Max raced a fast Mercedes during 2021.
He has also kept faster cars behind him to win. Such as 2016 with Kimi Ferrari up his chuff IIRC. Max was about 13 years old.
In 2021 he did rather choke though.
Quite a lot more is required before he's top-five material, to me. That's just my opinion, you might think he's right up with the best, and that's fine.
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
Brilliant
Max raced a fast Mercedes during 2021.
He has also kept faster cars behind him to win. Such as 2016 with Kimi Ferrari up his chuff IIRC. Max was about 13 years old.
He's very fast.Max raced a fast Mercedes during 2021.
He has also kept faster cars behind him to win. Such as 2016 with Kimi Ferrari up his chuff IIRC. Max was about 13 years old.
In 2021 he did rather choke though.
Quite a lot more is required before he's top-five material, to me. That's just my opinion, you might think he's right up with the best, and that's fine.
Bo_apex said:
You need to define 'choke". He beat all the other guys, just as he's paid to do.
He made several significant mistakes in the last few races when the pressure was on. Brazil and Saudi particularly spring to mind. In Saudi, in particular, after crashing on his quali lap, in the race he was a danger to himself and others, and very fortunate not to have been handed a ban for his brake test.I accept that he was awarded the title in AD.
paulguitar said:
Bo_apex said:
You need to define 'choke". He beat all the other guys, just as he's paid to do.
He made several significant mistakes in the last few races when the pressure was on. Brazil and Saudi particularly spring to mind. In Saudi, in particular, after crashing on his quali lap, in the race he was a danger to himself and others, and very fortunate not to have been handed a ban for his brake test.I accept that he was awarded the title in AD.
But to choke actually means fail to win. Like Arsenal in '03/'04, Max didn't fail. He won.
I can see the arguments for and against Max. He's undeniably fast, he's undeniably talented. But when we have seen him in close racing he hasn't always made the right choices, crossed the line between aggression and hard racing a fair few times etc. Now he just waltzes off into the distance and we have no idea if he's grown as a wheel to wheel racer or not and we don't know whether he's still sharp in that sense seeing as he's not having to do it at all this season.
I suppose I just want to see him pushed/tested. I'm a Hamilton fan so probably do carry a bit of bias against Max, but I think we all want to see a fight up front.
I suppose I just want to see him pushed/tested. I'm a Hamilton fan so probably do carry a bit of bias against Max, but I think we all want to see a fight up front.
tele_lover said:
Forester1965 said:
Verstappen's tactics in wheel to wheel racing are simple; he overtly pushes cars off the track, risking a penalty, to make clear that's what he'll do every time.
And this weekend Hamilton did that to Norris, Sainz to LeClerc and a few others did it too.skwdenyer said:
Is Max really quite the uberwunderkind he’s made out to be? .
There is not enough evidence to support it to that extent for me.He has had some cracking drives, for example Brazil in the wet. But then it was only when he has had a car with such an advantage that he is winning by such a margin. In 2021 he was challenged and came up way, way short resorting to all sorts of "tactics", some of which should have resulted in a DQ.
Since getting the rocketship he has driven well, but even now when slightly challenged it falls away.
There is no doubt he is good, has to be to keep it on the track and not make many mistakes.
BUT the only way we will really know is if he gets into a slower car and is able to battle for wins. I don't think he would. Or we put a top tier driver in the other Red Bull (even Sainz and Riccardio were putting manners on him in similar kit).
entropy said:
tele_lover said:
Forester1965 said:
Verstappen's tactics in wheel to wheel racing are simple; he overtly pushes cars off the track, risking a penalty, to make clear that's what he'll do every time.
And this weekend Hamilton did that to Norris, Sainz to LeClerc and a few others did it too.skwdenyer said:
This is what many say, but it wasn’t a whack job fuel strategy. Alonso pitted on lap 12 (for fuel and to abandon the super soft tyres). The crash was on lap 14, and both Rosberg and Kubica were forced to pit into a closed pit lane because they were on bingo fuel.
Or, put another way, their fuel strategy was almost the same as Alonso’s. Alonso’s strategy wasn’t a major outlier. Pitting 1/2 laps before others on the same strategy was easily explainable to Alonso as he was not making headway in the traffic around him - putting for free air made sense when in the window (lap 12 was in the window).
In terms of why Alonso would go along with this approach, he qualified badly (due to a fuel feed issue) despite topping practice. He was fast but out of position. A light load + supersofts would allow him to try to make up positions in the early laps. And, as said, it wasn’t whacky for a two-stop race, and he wasn’t the only one on a two-stopper.
That's a rather generous interpretation of things. Given how Briatore/Benetton/Renault have operated, I'd suggest it's at least as likely that Alonso was well in on it having been briefed by his er....manager/team principal. In fact the idea that Symonds and Briatore didn't thoroughly test their idea with Alonso (well known as a rather cerebral driver who had always shown great in-race awareness) is..........ahem.....unlikely let's just say even if couched with an implausible level of plausible deniability on Alonso's part. And I'm saying this as someone who absolutely rates Alonso as a terrific driver.Or, put another way, their fuel strategy was almost the same as Alonso’s. Alonso’s strategy wasn’t a major outlier. Pitting 1/2 laps before others on the same strategy was easily explainable to Alonso as he was not making headway in the traffic around him - putting for free air made sense when in the window (lap 12 was in the window).
In terms of why Alonso would go along with this approach, he qualified badly (due to a fuel feed issue) despite topping practice. He was fast but out of position. A light load + supersofts would allow him to try to make up positions in the early laps. And, as said, it wasn’t whacky for a two-stop race, and he wasn’t the only one on a two-stopper.
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