RE: The Lotus Five Year Plan - One Year In
Discussion
Even Arabs and Russian billionaires need a reason to buy a new supercar. It has to be better in some way, better looking, faster, better sounding, active suspension perhaps anything to give it an advantage to what's already out there.
The Esprit plans offer a flat plane crank V8 (same as a 2010 Ferrari but with less power and 3 years late). I don't think the styling will tempt any Lambo owners away. It's not going to be especially light. So you tell me why 3000 people should buy one? It's asking a hell of a lot of the Lotus badge and I think the McLaren is showing how hard it is to crack this market.
The Esprit plans offer a flat plane crank V8 (same as a 2010 Ferrari but with less power and 3 years late). I don't think the styling will tempt any Lambo owners away. It's not going to be especially light. So you tell me why 3000 people should buy one? It's asking a hell of a lot of the Lotus badge and I think the McLaren is showing how hard it is to crack this market.
Hitch78 said:
I see nothing to suggest that these cars, if made, will not be constructed to a high standard.
What about the bit where he says that decisions that take months in other car companies are being taken in half an hour? If good decisions only took half an hour, they'd all be doing it. Being slightly facetious here, but it also means you can make 20 decisions a day. How can anyone stay in the loop at that rate? Hares that were set running in the 'right direction' last week will be deemed the 'wrong direction' this week, but won't be caught until next month, by which time they'll have run a long way. Balls will be dropped.
Hitch78 said:
The chap used to work at Ferrari and they know a thing or two about product quality.
...BarnatosGhost said:
Hitch78 said:
I see nothing to suggest that these cars, if made, will not be constructed to a high standard.
What about the bit where he says that decisions that take months in other car companies are being taken in half an hour? If good decisions only took half an hour, they'd all be doing it. Being slightly facetious here, but it also means you can make 20 decisions a day. How can anyone stay in the loop at that rate? Hares that were set running in the 'right direction' last week will be deemed the 'wrong direction' this week, but won't be caught until next month, by which time they'll have run a long way. Balls will be dropped.
Hitch78 said:
The chap used to work at Ferrari and they know a thing or two about product quality.
...I'd like to see some evidence. My experience is that a small group of people who know what they're talking abour and who share a common goal make better decisions than a large number of people less directly connected to the project and therefore more likely to be considering political implications and game playing.
Also, your comment that if they make decisions in thirty minutes must mean they're making 20 a day is entirely exagerated.
And as for the chap who rolled out the tripe about cracking manifolds and glue fires as evidence that a modern Ferrari is not a quality product...doesn't seem to be stopping people buying them new does it? They are selling more cars than ever, and I cannot remember the last one that they made which was criticised for not being a quality product. It may have been the 348, which was a lifetime ago. Oh, and 1970s Italian generalims will just not wash either - Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini and Pagani are all making cars which are at the sharp end of the automotive spectrum.
I think the ambition to extend the range at the top end is right. My worry has always been that they don't understand the existing Elise/Exige market. You can say that they have been losing money in that market, and that's true, but without it Lotus would have gone under.
It's not clear to me whether Bahar's people were happy to lose existing customers because they expected to steal new ones from Porsche, or whether they really believed that existing Elise/Exige owners would actually rather have had a Boxster but somehow bought a Lotus by mistake. It does seem that the negative reaction from people who like the current cars to the proposed evolution of the Elise into a more mainstream, larger, heavier, plusher type of car has resulted in some kind of rethink, with some messages coming out of Lotus to the effect that it might be a lightweight car after all and that their original pitch has been misunderstood. The comment about "still thinking about where the next one should go" suggests to me that perhaps they failed to understand the appeal of the Elise, and are still struggling.
It concerns me that this interview suggests they think that what is important about the Elise might be that it should be a track car or that it should be cheap. I don't think either of those things are particularly important. What I would like to see is a continuation of the character of the S1 and S2 Elises - small, lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track - with a significant hike in performance and Bahar's ambitions to create a premium brand expressed through materials and build quality. They should be selling in the 35-45k range, not being priced in the 20's and compared to the MX5.
The Pits said:
The same people that said Lotus needed a V8 Esprit and then bought a 911 anyway.
That is a real issue.Hitch78 said:
BarnatosGhost said:
Hitch78 said:
I see nothing to suggest that these cars, if made, will not be constructed to a high standard.
What about the bit where he says that decisions that take months in other car companies are being taken in half an hour? If good decisions only took half an hour, they'd all be doing it. Being slightly facetious here, but it also means you can make 20 decisions a day. How can anyone stay in the loop at that rate? Hares that were set running in the 'right direction' last week will be deemed the 'wrong direction' this week, but won't be caught until next month, by which time they'll have run a long way. Balls will be dropped.
Hitch78 said:
The chap used to work at Ferrari and they know a thing or two about product quality.
...I'd like to see some evidence. My experience is that a small group of people who know what they're talking abour and who share a common goal make better decisions than a large number of people less directly connected to the project and therefore more likely to be considering political implications and game playing.
Also, your comment that if they make decisions in thirty minutes must mean they're making 20 a day is entirely exagerated.
And as for the chap who rolled out the tripe about cracking manifolds and glue fires as evidence that a modern Ferrari is not a quality product...doesn't seem to be stopping people buying them new does it? They are selling more cars than ever, and I cannot remember the last one that they made which was criticised for not being a quality product. It may have been the 348, which was a lifetime ago. Oh, and 1970s Italian generalims will just not wash either - Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini and Pagani are all making cars which are at the sharp end of the automotive spectrum.
If Norfolk's answer to Peter Wheeler makes a decision in 30 minutes, some of the above will inevitably be lacking.
As in so much of life, so in car building. Quick, Cheap, Good - you can only have two. If you've going for Quick then you'll have to compromise on either Good or Cheap, and we already know they are going to be (relative to the competition) cheap...
Ferraris sell well (very well) for reasons that are nothing to do with product quality.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Friday 24th June 10:44
I must say overall the artical sounds very positive for Lotus's future. I would think their main market should be a 911 competitor in price/power and approximate size. I'd guess just converting 5-10% of new 911 sales in the U.K. alone would be an excellent start, surely that can't be too tall an order?
Anyway, I hope they pull it off with quality products, can't wait to see the GT car.
Anyway, I hope they pull it off with quality products, can't wait to see the GT car.
BarnatosGhost said:
If the best-run car companies in the world (Porsche, BMW, JLR) take months to make a decision, it'll be because there's a lot of thought, testing, research and opinion-polling going into that decision, not because it's just sitting in somebody's in-tray.
If Norfolk's answer to Peter Wheeler makes a decision in 30 minutes, some of the above will inevitably be lacking.
As in so much of life, so in car building. Quick, Cheap, Good - you can only have two. If you've going for Quick then you'll have to compromise on either Good or Cheap, and we already know they are going to be (relative to the competition) cheap...
Ferraris sell well (very well) for reasons that are nothing to do with product quality.
Again you are missing my point. I never mentioned in-trays, I queried the value add of months of deliberation - active or not. If you need a big and heavy decision making process how come companies such as Pagani can make cars which are so good when they're just a bunch of guys in a shed? If Norfolk's answer to Peter Wheeler makes a decision in 30 minutes, some of the above will inevitably be lacking.
As in so much of life, so in car building. Quick, Cheap, Good - you can only have two. If you've going for Quick then you'll have to compromise on either Good or Cheap, and we already know they are going to be (relative to the competition) cheap...
Ferraris sell well (very well) for reasons that are nothing to do with product quality.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Friday 24th June 10:44
Also, as much as I love your 'quick/cheap/good' theory it is absolute nonsense. What you are doing there is making something up and trying to pass it off as some sort of proven rule. Why can you not make something quickly and of high quality at a decent price if you have the neccessary experience?
I'd love to know why you think people buy Ferraris too!
Hitch78 said:
BarnatosGhost said:
If the best-run car companies in the world (Porsche, BMW, JLR) take months to make a decision, it'll be because there's a lot of thought, testing, research and opinion-polling going into that decision, not because it's just sitting in somebody's in-tray.
If Norfolk's answer to Peter Wheeler makes a decision in 30 minutes, some of the above will inevitably be lacking.
As in so much of life, so in car building. Quick, Cheap, Good - you can only have two. If you've going for Quick then you'll have to compromise on either Good or Cheap, and we already know they are going to be (relative to the competition) cheap...
Ferraris sell well (very well) for reasons that are nothing to do with product quality.
Again you are missing my point. I never mentioned in-trays, I queried the value add of months of deliberation - active or not. If you need a big and heavy decision making process how come companies such as Pagani can make cars which are so good when they're just a bunch of guys in a shed? If Norfolk's answer to Peter Wheeler makes a decision in 30 minutes, some of the above will inevitably be lacking.
As in so much of life, so in car building. Quick, Cheap, Good - you can only have two. If you've going for Quick then you'll have to compromise on either Good or Cheap, and we already know they are going to be (relative to the competition) cheap...
Ferraris sell well (very well) for reasons that are nothing to do with product quality.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Friday 24th June 10:44
Also, as much as I love your 'quick/cheap/good' theory it is absolute nonsense. What you are doing there is making something up and trying to pass it off as some sort of proven rule. Why can you not make something quickly and of high quality at a decent price if you have the neccessary experience?
I'd love to know why you think people buy Ferraris too!
Everyone in the industry has the necessary experience - that is a hygiene factor. You can't do all three because that would deliver the perfect product, which is impossible. EVERYTHING ever produced, in any industry, is compromised to some degree on one or more of the three, by definition.
If you sacrifice some quality, you can always make something a bit cheaper. If you take more time and go slower, you can always make something a bit better, etc. Always a three-way equilibrium.
Ferraris sell because of image, styling, mystique, arrogant (but good) marketing, the powerful idea of 'reassuringly expensive', high performance and the 'experience'. With the exception of performance, these are largely ephemeral, dreamy, emotive concepts.
Product quality isn't at all ephemeral or dreamy, it is excruciatingly rational. The world of metrologists and engineers. People with expensive calculators, bad haircuts and obsessive-compulsive disorders. Not people with expensive fountain pens and 'lifestyles'.
Precision, repeatability, robustness, durability - all important aspects of product quality that don't feature amongst Ferrari's otherwise impressive USPs. I'm sure they're better than they used to be, but they aren't amongst the best, or even in the top half.
Pits, I see the reasoning in much of what you say, but you got one thing wrong. This business about teh Esprit having less power and more weight than the Ferrari.
That's not right sir, read the previous article about the new engine, It's more powerful (620bhp) and way way lighter than the lexus unit and the Ferrari unit and the car is actually targeted to weigh less than the Ferrari by some degree.
That's not right sir, read the previous article about the new engine, It's more powerful (620bhp) and way way lighter than the lexus unit and the Ferrari unit and the car is actually targeted to weigh less than the Ferrari by some degree.
Hitch78 said:
loomx said:
Two worrying things about this artical... 1. The ammount of times they say "based on assumptions" assuming things is never good. and 2. The lack of comments on focuing on build quality of the product.
When your aiming in the price bracket they are aiming for, the car will need to be flawless in terms of build quality to succeed.
But in business you build a case and secure your funding based on assumptions an awful lot of the time. It is not the use of assumptions that is the risk, it is the quality of the assumption. When they talk about using an assumption they are not saying that they gave it some thought or had a hunch; an assumption will be backed by rigourous methodology that will be audited and tested by whoever is funding this. When your aiming in the price bracket they are aiming for, the car will need to be flawless in terms of build quality to succeed.
I see nothing to suggest that these cars, if made, will not be constructed to a high standard. The chap used to work at Ferrari and they know a thing or two about product quality. He has also surrounded himself with some notable names who will also recognise the need for quality - they just have to do something about it now.
Either way I hope they succeed, I love the new look.
cathalm said:
Pits, I see the reasoning in much of what you say, but you got one thing wrong. This business about teh Esprit having less power and more weight than the Ferrari.
That's not right sir, read the previous article about the new engine, It's more powerful (620bhp) and way way lighter than the lexus unit and the Ferrari unit and the car is actually targeted to weigh less than the Ferrari by some degree.
This is what I was going on. From evo.That's not right sir, read the previous article about the new engine, It's more powerful (620bhp) and way way lighter than the lexus unit and the Ferrari unit and the car is actually targeted to weigh less than the Ferrari by some degree.
'The engine, which is being developed in conjunction with an unnamed partner, is a 90-degree naturally-aspirated 4.8-litre V8 featuring a flat-plane crank and developing 560bhp and 399lb-ft of torque. Lotus reckons the Esprit will be able to accelerate from 0-62mph in 3.4 seconds and from 0-124mph in 9.0 seconds and have a 204mph top speed. The company is also aiming at a £168,500 pricetag.'
Now 560bhp is going some for a 4.8 n/a engine. 620bhp is not realistic without forced induction. Great if they make it but it's still pure speculation as to when and if that will ever happen and how much it will cost. Hence why my comments about being slower than the existing £160+ cars. At 560bhp it would be. Which is not giving the wealthy customers Bahar is aiming at much to go on. No doubt a 458 'scuderia' or even quicker Mclaren will be on the scene by then too.
I think that the real problem is that people like me (and probably many on PH) aren't the market that Lotus are chasing anymore.
I don't understand the car business - Bahar and his people surely do.
Clearly the Lotus that I aspire to owning is never going to happen again. I got close to buying a new elise S1, then went a got a caterham, I've almost written cheques for old esprits but then went and spend my money on something else.
Sadly the little lightweight impractical two seater sportscar that is mainly for the weekend is not a Lotus car anymore. Ariel make them, and Caterham, and some others. Hopefully Gordon Murray will add his version of a sprite to the choice soon.
I wish Lotus the best of luck. I already miss wanting to own one.
I don't understand the car business - Bahar and his people surely do.
Clearly the Lotus that I aspire to owning is never going to happen again. I got close to buying a new elise S1, then went a got a caterham, I've almost written cheques for old esprits but then went and spend my money on something else.
Sadly the little lightweight impractical two seater sportscar that is mainly for the weekend is not a Lotus car anymore. Ariel make them, and Caterham, and some others. Hopefully Gordon Murray will add his version of a sprite to the choice soon.
I wish Lotus the best of luck. I already miss wanting to own one.
suffolk009 said:
I don't understand the car business - Bahar and his people surely do.
They've got a LOT of experience between them. Yet showing the next 7-8 years products in one go is pretty much unheralded. Nobody else does it, because they're on an established treadmill of getting people excited about the next car, selling it, then starting the buzz about the next one - walking customers through an ownership chain.Lotus have shown everyone the whole lot. People who might well have gone for Esprit next year have now seen Eterne and Elite, and may well decide to wait for cars they think might suit them better. If they do keep thir money in their wallets and wait - the cars they want may never arrive.
Given the small overall number of people in the game for these cars, showing them all the choices at the start, when you won't be able to deliver on the expectation for some of them for the best part of a decade, is a bold decision indeed.
Bahar said the reason they did it was to demonstrate intent to major first-tier suppliers, in order to get the big boys on board with the project and improve the cars. That sounds reasonable, but they've surrendered an awful lot of their PR capital in exchange. Couldn't they have kept the plans an 'open secret' in the industry to show intent - albeit less convincingly - but whilst keeping their powder less sopping-wet with the potential buyers?
I wonder if that huge press reveal a year ago was the result of one of the 30 minute decision meetings.
Time will tell if it is genius or madness. It is certainly bold.
Edited by BarnatosGhost on Friday 24th June 12:14
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