RE: The Lotus Five Year Plan - One Year In
Discussion
otolith said:
It concerns me that this interview suggests they think that what is important about the Elise might be that it should be a track car or that it should be cheap. I don't think either of those things are particularly important. What I would like to see is a continuation of the character of the S1 and S2 Elises - small, lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track - with a significant hike in performance and Bahar's ambitions to create a premium brand expressed through materials and build quality. They should be selling in the 35-45k range, not being priced in the 20's and compared to the MX5.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post I differ when it comes to the above quote. I know the Elise was expensive in 1996 but it was still just within reach of the MX-5 and this added to the appeal in my view. I agree that the new Elise should be "small, lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track" but I think it should also be attainable- ie in the £25-£35k band. At this level you'll attract people in their mid to late 20's who will then hopefully work their way up the new models. I'm not bothered about increasing the performance of the car- in SC guise it's fast enough already and is probably optimal in my 111R. If you want to go faster you'd buy an Evora.
LOTUS = small, lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track.
This is were there is a gap in the market. It suit the niche volumes you can made, and the quality you can delivery.
Come on Lotus wake up to the idea that no one is going to buy a £100k+ car from you. Just forget this idea.
This is were there is a gap in the market. It suit the niche volumes you can made, and the quality you can delivery.
Come on Lotus wake up to the idea that no one is going to buy a £100k+ car from you. Just forget this idea.
I think more performance is needed to put some clear water between the entry level Elise and the MX-5 - the current 1.6 is barely any quicker than an MX-5 and slower than many cheaper hot hatches. I think the entry level car should cost around 35k and be around the performance level of the R or maybe even SC models, with the top level car around 300bhp. I don't agree with the idea of having to buy a larger, heavier Evora to get more performance, it's a different kind of car to the Elise.
If they want the brand to be aspirational, I think they need to get out of selling MX-5 rivals to twenty-somethings, particularly with Toyota and Subaru taking a stab at that market.
If they want the brand to be aspirational, I think they need to get out of selling MX-5 rivals to twenty-somethings, particularly with Toyota and Subaru taking a stab at that market.
Good decisions take 30 mins but they can't seem to source a faster engine for the current Elise. Granted we might get a V6 engine in the Exige years after the aftermarket tuners or we might not.... Or do they want to make the current model unpopular so the next one sells...
Lotus were plainly up for sale and so far the plan's failed. Build their own engines - can't see where they'd get the right economies of scale for that and stay profitable with a 2 year warranty....
Hope I'm wrong and they go on to build brilliant cars profitably - the Evora is a cracking handling car.
Lotus were plainly up for sale and so far the plan's failed. Build their own engines - can't see where they'd get the right economies of scale for that and stay profitable with a 2 year warranty....
Hope I'm wrong and they go on to build brilliant cars profitably - the Evora is a cracking handling car.
I am amazed at the continuing cynicism on here about Lotus's plans, given the frank detail contained in the two articles on PH this week. I think the same old comments are being rolled out by posters while ignoring the actual content of the articles.
Forget what Lotus has promised and done in the past - this is a revolution of the brand, led by a pretty incredible management team, who are approaching the future with lateral thinking to reinvent one of Britain's best loved car brands.
Best of luck to them.
Forget what Lotus has promised and done in the past - this is a revolution of the brand, led by a pretty incredible management team, who are approaching the future with lateral thinking to reinvent one of Britain's best loved car brands.
Best of luck to them.
Two things:
1. To people who say Lotus can't, look at Skoda, Dacia, Lada, SEAT. None in the same marketplace as Lotus obviously but all have come from far more lowly backgrounds to effectively compete in their market places.
2. Lotus manangement are doing what they promised. You can't ask more than that.
1. To people who say Lotus can't, look at Skoda, Dacia, Lada, SEAT. None in the same marketplace as Lotus obviously but all have come from far more lowly backgrounds to effectively compete in their market places.
2. Lotus manangement are doing what they promised. You can't ask more than that.
Howard1650 said:
LOTUS = small, lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track.
This is were there is a gap in the market. It suit the niche volumes you can made, and the quality you can delivery.
Sadly a limited market and fThis is were there is a gap in the market. It suit the niche volumes you can made, and the quality you can delivery.
k all margins as has already been proven over a number of years.Have Lotus zoomed off in the wrong direction? Surely the Elise has been the most succesful car they have ever built? Without it they would have folded years ago? So with this in mind why don't they stick to what they do best. Why not possibly even release a hot hatch? A rival to the mini. People spending under £30k would love to have a Lotus on their driveway. Over £30k i'm not so sure. I don't think that the brand is strong enough. They have decided to compete with some really big fish and whilst i love Lotus, could you buy one instead of a Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo? Especially knowing how hideous the depreciation would be. I want to be positive, the new range does look fantastic, i hope i am proven wrong, i really do, but i am worried this may go down in the history books as a giant blunder.
GKP said:
Ancient, ancient history. Pre-Elise history. Pre-Elite/Eclat history. Maybe in the early 70's, but not anymore. Look forward, not back.
Not remotely. "lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track" is totally forward thinking and absolutely where Ferrari and Lamborghini are heading. Bahar's thinking is ten years out of date already.That's what's so tragic. Lotus's traditional strengths have never been more relevant.
For indulgent sports cars to have a future they need to be efficient and exciting to drive below 100mph, not more high-end conspicuous consumption status symbols. And Lotus were better placed to deliver this type of car than anyone else. For God's sake Ferrari were using the Evora as a benchmark for the 458! The market might not appreciate Lotus's genius but the rest of the industry certainly does!
200mph exotic cars do not have a sustainable future, they are merely something that is currently tolerated. F1 is already under enormous pressure to become radically more efficient. This issue isn't going to go away.
Goodfella 555 said:
Have Lotus zoomed off in the wrong direction? Surely the Elise has been the most succesful car they have ever built?
Seemingly they've run at a loss for the past fifteen years, so the little Elise was actually not profitable and in all honestly it has a very limited market appeal generally speaking.The Pits said:
GKP said:
Ancient, ancient history. Pre-Elise history. Pre-Elite/Eclat history. Maybe in the early 70's, but not anymore. Look forward, not back.
Not remotely. "lightweight, efficient, minimalist, excitingly styled road cars which are also good on track" is totally forward thinking and absolutely where Ferrari and Lamborghini are heading. Bahar's thinking is ten years out of date already.That's what's so tragic. Lotus's traditional strengths have never been more relevant.
For indulgent sports cars to have a future they need to be efficient and exciting to drive below 100mph, not more high-end conspicuous consumption status symbols. And Lotus were better placed to deliver this type of car than anyone else. For God's sake Ferrari were using the Evora as a benchmark for the 458! The market might not appreciate Lotus's genius but the rest of the industry certainly does!
200mph exotic cars do not have a sustainable future, they are merely something that is currently tolerated. F1 is already under enormous pressure to become radically more efficient. This issue isn't going to go away.
The Pits said:
For indulgent sports cars to have a future they need to be efficient and exciting to drive below 100mph, not more high-end conspicuous consumption status symbols.
In Europe maybe, but China, the Middle East and the US will happily eat up expensive status symbol cars for a fair while yet.The article states they've already sold 120 Evoras in China before they even got going properly....
Another remark in the article, they know it would very difficult indeed to sell 3000 Espirits, which is why they are developing the vehicle architecture to enable the two front-engined models to be developed so cheaply (relatively speaking). We are talking small volumes here.
He wonders why the press and enthusiasts have little good to say about his organisation?.........
He turns up with a bunch of cronies, all VERY well turned out............
Promises the earth.......
Then has to reign the ideas department (20 minute, pad and pencil department) in.
Is very critical of the existing product portfolio............ that has kept the company going and grown its own fan base.......... but does nothing to improve / change it.
Brings out a new model, then says it will have a warm over / no it won't / yes it will / no it...... oh hang on why isn't it selling???
And then goes on to decide to build 'his' own engines - there is a reason that this is usually done by VERY big companies.
The reason could again by that for all the hot air, what has actualy happened for the existing customer base?
How about a more able engine for the Elise, or at least blow the 1600cc unit, and offer a £5k price reduction for anyone who has / owned a Lotus before? All the talk is of £m's not everything has to be a 'Big' expensive idea.......... you can have little cheaper moments you know, Mr Heath Robinson didn't do enerything badly you know!
He turns up with a bunch of cronies, all VERY well turned out............
Promises the earth.......
Then has to reign the ideas department (20 minute, pad and pencil department) in.
Is very critical of the existing product portfolio............ that has kept the company going and grown its own fan base.......... but does nothing to improve / change it.
Brings out a new model, then says it will have a warm over / no it won't / yes it will / no it...... oh hang on why isn't it selling???
And then goes on to decide to build 'his' own engines - there is a reason that this is usually done by VERY big companies.
The reason could again by that for all the hot air, what has actualy happened for the existing customer base?
How about a more able engine for the Elise, or at least blow the 1600cc unit, and offer a £5k price reduction for anyone who has / owned a Lotus before? All the talk is of £m's not everything has to be a 'Big' expensive idea.......... you can have little cheaper moments you know, Mr Heath Robinson didn't do enerything badly you know!
Goodfella 555 said:
They have decided to compete with some really big fish and whilst i love Lotus, could you buy one instead of a Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo? Especially knowing how hideous the depreciation would be.
Just wondering what that assumption is based upon? It might be correct for the new cars, we won't know until they hit the market, but Elises and Exiges have historically depreciated less than Boxsters. Ironically Ginetta is aiming for the market place you are saying Lotus should aim for, yet nobody approves of Ginetta's business plan either.
Just thought id mention it.
At the end of the day if Lotus break even on their new models than they are in a better position than they are now. At least they are appealing to a larger market.
Just thought id mention it.
At the end of the day if Lotus break even on their new models than they are in a better position than they are now. At least they are appealing to a larger market.
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