RE: The Lotus Five Year Plan - One Year In
Discussion
Goodfella 555 said:
Have Lotus zoomed off in the wrong direction? Surely the Elise has been the most succesful car they have ever built? Without it they would have folded years ago? So with this in mind why don't they stick to what they do best. Why not possibly even release a hot hatch? A rival to the mini. People spending under £30k would love to have a Lotus on their driveway.
Interesting idea.I suppose to develop something from scratch would be absurd, but with the history of Lotus Cortina etc it could work.
I'd pay a bit of a premium for a Lotus badge with the ride and handling sorted on a stripped out souped up Fiesta. And who'd pay £35k for an Aston IQ with that on offer?
suffolk009 said:
Goodfella 555 said:
Have Lotus zoomed off in the wrong direction? Surely the Elise has been the most succesful car they have ever built? Without it they would have folded years ago? So with this in mind why don't they stick to what they do best. Why not possibly even release a hot hatch? A rival to the mini. People spending under £30k would love to have a Lotus on their driveway.
Interesting idea.I suppose to develop something from scratch would be absurd, but with the history of Lotus Cortina etc it could work.
I'd pay a bit of a premium for a Lotus badge with the ride and handling sorted on a stripped out souped up Fiesta. And who'd pay £35k for an Aston IQ with that on offer?
braddo said:
Imagine you have owned Lotus for the past 15 years and financed its losses. What would you rather do - be satisfied chucking the badge on a hot hatch or take full advantage of the brand's worth (e.g. Lotus Engineering's expertise; a history containing the Espirit, Elise and F1 championships etc etc) and go and take on the big boys?
Yes but the latter is a Far Far Far more expensive gamble than the former.The game Lotus is playing has one major risk: A competitor like Lamborghini or Audi could easily corrupt Esprit sales by dropping the price of their cars. VAG can compensate the loss, Lotus can't. That would destroy Lotus and give VAG and others the chance to take over for peanuts. TBH that would be my strategy.
luke g28 said:
Ironically Ginetta is aiming for the market place you are saying Lotus should aim for, yet nobody approves of Ginetta's business plan either.
Nor Aston's lack of one. PH'ers are difficult to please... Can't think why nobody's mentioned that the thing that would best help their ambitions would be to recruit Messrs: Newey and Vettel and win an F1 World Championship.
JohnGoodridge said:
Nor Aston's lack of one. PH'ers are difficult to please...
Can't think why nobody's mentioned that the thing that would best help their ambitions would be to recruit Messrs: Newey and Vettel and win an F1 World Championship.
I think Newey alone would blow the budget.Can't think why nobody's mentioned that the thing that would best help their ambitions would be to recruit Messrs: Newey and Vettel and win an F1 World Championship.
The Pits said:
Personally I'd have preferred the Lexus engines. Lotus have no heritage as an engine builder.
Pre Elise most of Lotus's engines were either there own design, or very heavily reworked versions of other peoplesOnly there cheaper cars (S2 Elan, Elise) used standard powerplants from other makers, this is one of the Evora's problems i think, it's at a higher price point, but use's a pretty basic engine compared to the competion at 50k to 60k
I dont think using Lexus engines would have been a problem (In fact a lexus v8 in the Evora would have been great IMO), but it's probably a better selling point to have your own, certainly on the higher end models, as long as it's reliable, if you are going to use somebody else's Lexus might lack the brand, at the end of the day there brand is no were near as strong as Audi/Bmw or Mercedes, who seem to be the engines builders most smaller supercar makers turn to, when they want a powerplant
No problem with lotus modifying existing engines, that's what they have always done. All the Toyota engines have lotus management tuning.
I also am one of the few that would believe that lotus could successfully build their own engine. I bought an esprit v8 and am still a tvr owner and like the bespoke engine.
However, looking at it as a business proposition it makes no sense. Using Lexus engines slays the reliability spectre at a stroke. Surely that's worth far more to potential customers than the kudos of having their own engine? Most people will require absolute proof that its reliable before going anywhere near it, meaning no-ones going to want an early car. All that just goes away when using a proven engine.
Perhaps unfairly but I can't imagine a lotus 4 being better or more dependable than my toyota zzge engine in the Elise. It really suits the car and I do enjoy the reassurance it gives. I'm not in favour of any old engine in a lotus but the two Lexus engines discussed are pretty sensational starting points, especially the shrieking LF-A v10. Now that in the back of a lotus chassis would have been sensational. I would ache to own one.
Now consider who lotus are wanting to compete with. Ferrari and lamborghini. In terms of exotic powerplants that deliver on the all important emotional front, they are untouchable and have been for decades. The Lexus V10 would have put the esprit in contention but a 4.8 homegrown V8? That will be some feat.
I also am one of the few that would believe that lotus could successfully build their own engine. I bought an esprit v8 and am still a tvr owner and like the bespoke engine.
However, looking at it as a business proposition it makes no sense. Using Lexus engines slays the reliability spectre at a stroke. Surely that's worth far more to potential customers than the kudos of having their own engine? Most people will require absolute proof that its reliable before going anywhere near it, meaning no-ones going to want an early car. All that just goes away when using a proven engine.
Perhaps unfairly but I can't imagine a lotus 4 being better or more dependable than my toyota zzge engine in the Elise. It really suits the car and I do enjoy the reassurance it gives. I'm not in favour of any old engine in a lotus but the two Lexus engines discussed are pretty sensational starting points, especially the shrieking LF-A v10. Now that in the back of a lotus chassis would have been sensational. I would ache to own one.
Now consider who lotus are wanting to compete with. Ferrari and lamborghini. In terms of exotic powerplants that deliver on the all important emotional front, they are untouchable and have been for decades. The Lexus V10 would have put the esprit in contention but a 4.8 homegrown V8? That will be some feat.
Edited by The Pits on Saturday 25th June 09:21
The Pits said:
No problem with lotus modifying existing engines, that's what they have always done. All the Toyota engines have lotus management tuning.
I also am one of the few that would believe that lotus could successfully build their own engine. I bought an esprit v8 and am still a tvr owner and like the bespoke engine.
However, looking at it as a business proposition it makes no sense. Using Lexus engines slays the reliability spectre at a stroke. Surely that's worth far more to potential customers than the kudos of having their own engine? Most people will require absolute proof that its reliable before going anywhere near it, meaning no-ones going to want an early car. All that just goes away when using a proven engine.
Perhaps unfairly but I can't imagine a lotus 4 being better or more dependable than my toyota zzge engine in the Elise. It really suits the car and I do enjoy the reassurance it gives. I'm not in favour of any old engine in a lotus but the two Lexus engines discussed are pretty sensational starting points, especially the shrieking LF-A v10. Now that in the back of a lotus chassis would have been sensational. I would ache to own one.
Now consider who lotus are wanting to compete with. Ferrari and lamborghini. In terms of exotic powerplants that deliver on the all important emotional front, they are untouchable and have been for decades. The Lexus V10 would have put the esprit in contention but a 4.8 homegrown V8? That will be some feat.
Well i would not really call a chip change a modified engine, the Lotus ford Twin Cam, yes, as it had a ford block, with a lotus head, the Lotus 900 series was entriely there own design, including the block, the carlton engine was bored out and twin turbo'd, the VHPD, Sport 160 and 135 engines were also lightly to heavily reworkedI also am one of the few that would believe that lotus could successfully build their own engine. I bought an esprit v8 and am still a tvr owner and like the bespoke engine.
However, looking at it as a business proposition it makes no sense. Using Lexus engines slays the reliability spectre at a stroke. Surely that's worth far more to potential customers than the kudos of having their own engine? Most people will require absolute proof that its reliable before going anywhere near it, meaning no-ones going to want an early car. All that just goes away when using a proven engine.
Perhaps unfairly but I can't imagine a lotus 4 being better or more dependable than my toyota zzge engine in the Elise. It really suits the car and I do enjoy the reassurance it gives. I'm not in favour of any old engine in a lotus but the two Lexus engines discussed are pretty sensational starting points, especially the shrieking LF-A v10. Now that in the back of a lotus chassis would have been sensational. I would ache to own one.
Now consider who lotus are wanting to compete with. Ferrari and lamborghini. In terms of exotic powerplants that deliver on the all important emotional front, they are untouchable and have been for decades. The Lexus V10 would have put the esprit in contention but a 4.8 homegrown V8? That will be some feat.
Edited by The Pits on Saturday 25th June 09:21
The 2ZZ in the 111r and SC varients was a brilliant engine and perfect for the Elise, the VVC rover was also a nice engine, the basic untuned Rover and Yota engines however were less good, and since toyata has no replacement planned for the 2ZZ, then if lotus can use a high reving inline 4 of there own, that would be good
Engines last a long time, Bentley used that v8 for decades, Lambo Aston etc have used there V12's for ages, If Lotus get the design right, this engine should see them good for 15 + years, the old 900 series powered lotus for a long time, and if it had been a 6 instead of a 4, would likely have had an even longer lifespan
suffolk009 said:
JohnGoodridge said:
Nor Aston's lack of one. PH'ers are difficult to please...
Can't think why nobody's mentioned that the thing that would best help their ambitions would be to recruit Messrs: Newey and Vettel and win an F1 World Championship.
I think Newey alone would blow the budget.Can't think why nobody's mentioned that the thing that would best help their ambitions would be to recruit Messrs: Newey and Vettel and win an F1 World Championship.
I know, I'm dreaming...
The Pits said:
Why not use the old lotus v8 then?
Engines used to last a long time but don't anymore because of ever tightening legislation.
Another good reason to use an engine from a major manufacturer.
I think the issue with the V8 is it does not really rev very high, and would probably cost a lot to bring up to speed, it's also not N/A which seems to be what there after aswellEngines used to last a long time but don't anymore because of ever tightening legislation.
Another good reason to use an engine from a major manufacturer.
otolith said:
The problem with the 2ZZ is that I can't help but compare it unfavourably to the Honda K20A.
It compares very well IMO, it's not as powerful because it's a 1.8 instead of a 2 litre, it's outputs are pretty similar to the old 1.8 VtecThe Honda would have been i think the best choice if it was available as it was more powerful and had a far greater chance of staying in production longer, but the Yota was pretty decent, and gave the car a decent turn of speed, especially in S/C form
Edited by peter450 on Saturday 25th June 13:35
I think one of Lotus' biggest hurdles will be that of quality. I have no doubt they'll be able to make the car stop, go and turn with alacrity and poise, but it wasn't enough to take the Evora to larger sales numbers, mainly because - and I'm quoting what seems to be general consensus from the motoring journos - the build and interiors were simply not where someone dropping £50k+ on a sports car would expect them to be.
I've never seen an Evora or Europa on the road, and the Europa never even really seemed to generate much by way of copy in the mags either.
I've never seen an Evora or Europa on the road, and the Europa never even really seemed to generate much by way of copy in the mags either.
So wait, they canned the Elan?!? jesus christ there really is something wrong with the people at Lotus. it is like they do everything for that company that SHOULDNT be done. It is like they ignore the obvious and do the exact opposite of what would make the company a success. Seriously, they should friggen hire me, hire a band of enthusiasts, we will make that company a real success FFS!! 
The Elan was THE MOST anticipated new car in my opinion. I was shocked how beautiful it looked and really couldnt wait for it to be built, especially with the engine specs!
The Elan was THE MOST anticipated new car in my opinion. I was shocked how beautiful it looked and really couldnt wait for it to be built, especially with the engine specs!
peter450 said:
It compares very well IMO, it's not as powerful because it's a 1.8 instead of a 2 litre, it's outputs are pretty similar to the old 1.8 Vtec
Wasn't particularly thinking about output - as you say, the Toyota is down on displacement but up on specific output, though the additional 200cc, torque and power would be welcome. What I prefer about the Honda is the sound and the less off/on power delivery. My Elise sounds better than it did, thanks to 2bular, but that's a louder and fruitier exhaust drowning out some of the less inspiring noises from the engine. The motorsport remap at some point should help with the power delivery, but the Honda engine is just nicer out of the box.ESOG said:
So wait, they canned the Elan?!? jesus christ there really is something wrong with the people at Lotus. it is like they do everything for that company that SHOULDNT be done. It is like they ignore the obvious and do the exact opposite of what would make the company a success. Seriously, they should friggen hire me, hire a band of enthusiasts, we will make that company a real success FFS!!
The Elan was THE MOST anticipated new car in my opinion. I was shocked how beautiful it looked and really couldnt wait for it to be built, especially with the engine specs!
No. No they haven't.The Elan was THE MOST anticipated new car in my opinion. I was shocked how beautiful it looked and really couldnt wait for it to be built, especially with the engine specs!
BSC said:
The game Lotus is playing has one major risk: A competitor like Lamborghini or Audi could easily corrupt Esprit sales by dropping the price of their cars. VAG can compensate the loss, Lotus can't.
You are absolutely right. Without a solid core business from which to launch this ambitious venture Lotus are taking a massive risk. It's not even as if Proton have anything relevant on which to build in the relevant markets. I simply don't understand why they haven't had a crack at the small sportscar market instead with something more like the Smart Roadster (a car which I feel was very unlucky in being just slightly ahead of its time and hampered by a silly gearbox). suffolk009 said:
I think Newey alone would blow the budget.
Bahar's trying - he's pumping cash into paying for advertising on Renaults & KVRT, loading the factory up with vanity publications & merchandise that nobody can take seriously (£90 for a keyring!) and blowing the rest on lawyers fees suing Team Lotus & Caterham.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff