Electronic handbrakes why
Discussion
I had en electronic handbrake on a toyota avensis.
Never really trusted it, I would lift the clutch up in readiness for the lights changing and the car would go "heck, lets just release it now and see what happens" causing me to roll back.
I prefer the security of a completely mechanical device which works the way you want it to 100% of the time!
Never really trusted it, I would lift the clutch up in readiness for the lights changing and the car would go "heck, lets just release it now and see what happens" causing me to roll back.
I prefer the security of a completely mechanical device which works the way you want it to 100% of the time!
To balance the argument:
You don't have to "feel" when the handbrake needs adjusting because the electric parkbrake adjusts itself every time it is used. This reduces the servicing costs (at main dealers not backstreet sheds)so the fleets love them.
Packaging is far easier, not only does it free up cabin space, but the need to route handbrake cables is removed. This is particularly an issue in mid-engined cars.
You get lots of comfort features (auto apply, hill hold, drive away release etc).
The big one that everyone forgets is that cars are getting heavier. Much heavier. The requirements of ECE13h aren't changing - it's simply getting impossible to build vehicles that will hold on a serious slope on a manual handbrake unless you're Jeff Capes. Put simply to meet type approval you either need a silly long handbrake lever or high friction pads. Have you tried parking your fully laden car on a 17% slope recently? Not an issue with EPB.
You don't have to "feel" when the handbrake needs adjusting because the electric parkbrake adjusts itself every time it is used. This reduces the servicing costs (at main dealers not backstreet sheds)so the fleets love them.
Packaging is far easier, not only does it free up cabin space, but the need to route handbrake cables is removed. This is particularly an issue in mid-engined cars.
You get lots of comfort features (auto apply, hill hold, drive away release etc).
The big one that everyone forgets is that cars are getting heavier. Much heavier. The requirements of ECE13h aren't changing - it's simply getting impossible to build vehicles that will hold on a serious slope on a manual handbrake unless you're Jeff Capes. Put simply to meet type approval you either need a silly long handbrake lever or high friction pads. Have you tried parking your fully laden car on a 17% slope recently? Not an issue with EPB.
VxDuncan said:
To balance the argument:
The big one that everyone forgets is that cars are getting heavier. Much heavier. The requirements of ECE13h aren't changing - it's simply getting impossible to build vehicles that will hold on a serious slope on a manual handbrake unless you're Jeff Capes. Put simply to meet type approval you either need a silly long handbrake lever or high friction pads. Have you tried parking your fully laden car on a 17% slope recently? Not an issue with EPB.
You do realise that EPB's don't apply any more parking force than a simple, 'old fashioned' hand brake lever don't you ? All they do is take out the pulling on the lever/releasing it phase.The big one that everyone forgets is that cars are getting heavier. Much heavier. The requirements of ECE13h aren't changing - it's simply getting impossible to build vehicles that will hold on a serious slope on a manual handbrake unless you're Jeff Capes. Put simply to meet type approval you either need a silly long handbrake lever or high friction pads. Have you tried parking your fully laden car on a 17% slope recently? Not an issue with EPB.
Most of them are just a motor with cables attached that do exactly the same as a person with a lever but have inputs from the clutch/brake pedal switches that tell them to release at certain points but mostly beep irritatingly at you when you don't wish to apply the handbrake with the ignition off.
Jimmyarm said:
You do realise that EPB's don't apply any more parking force than a simple, 'old fashioned' hand brake lever don't you ? All they do is take out the pulling on the lever/releasing it phase.
A three foot long handbrake lever maybe! Be fair to say a VW type EPB actuator can apply a fair amount more clamp force than a manual handbrake. Won't give details, but try a 2.7ton car on a 1 in 3 slope for starters.VxDuncan said:
A three foot long handbrake lever maybe! Be fair to say a VW type EPB actuator can apply a fair amount more clamp force than a manual handbrake. Won't give details, but try a 2.7ton car on a 1 in 3 slope for starters.
How strange that so many large, heavy SUVs have had a mechanical handbrake that worked perfectly well?VxDuncan said:
To balance the argument:
You don't have to "feel" when the handbrake needs adjusting because the electric parkbrake adjusts itself every time it is used. This reduces the servicing costs (at main dealers not backstreet sheds)so the fleets love them.
Packaging is far easier, not only does it free up cabin space, but the need to route handbrake cables is removed. This is particularly an issue in mid-engined cars.
You get lots of comfort features (auto apply, hill hold, drive away release etc).
The big one that everyone forgets is that cars are getting heavier. Much heavier. The requirements of ECE13h aren't changing - it's simply getting impossible to build vehicles that will hold on a serious slope on a manual handbrake unless you're Jeff Capes. Put simply to meet type approval you either need a silly long handbrake lever or high friction pads. Have you tried parking your fully laden car on a 17% slope recently? Not an issue with EPB.
They may self-adjust on the cable side, but the ones I have encountered do not self-adjust for shoe wear: with a heavy vehicle and use of auto-release this can be considerable and does not make a happy bedfellow with fleet-friendly service intervals.You don't have to "feel" when the handbrake needs adjusting because the electric parkbrake adjusts itself every time it is used. This reduces the servicing costs (at main dealers not backstreet sheds)so the fleets love them.
Packaging is far easier, not only does it free up cabin space, but the need to route handbrake cables is removed. This is particularly an issue in mid-engined cars.
You get lots of comfort features (auto apply, hill hold, drive away release etc).
The big one that everyone forgets is that cars are getting heavier. Much heavier. The requirements of ECE13h aren't changing - it's simply getting impossible to build vehicles that will hold on a serious slope on a manual handbrake unless you're Jeff Capes. Put simply to meet type approval you either need a silly long handbrake lever or high friction pads. Have you tried parking your fully laden car on a 17% slope recently? Not an issue with EPB.
In my experience mechanical handbrakes are great with drums, but more of a compromise with discs. Both my W123 Merc and my E39 5 series had hopeless handbrakes with small drums inside the discs which forever needed adjusting and hardly held the car. Ones which use the main disc pads maybe work better, but are vulnerable to a hot disc shrinking as it cools and realeasing the car. An Alfa visiting next door left a car shaped hole in the fence at the bottom of our road a couple of years ago.
I've just got my first car with an electric handbrake and was worried I'd hate it. It seems to just work though... Releases automatically when I want it to, and just does its thing. Granted it's something else to go expensively wrong, but until then I quite like it!
I've just got my first car with an electric handbrake and was worried I'd hate it. It seems to just work though... Releases automatically when I want it to, and just does its thing. Granted it's something else to go expensively wrong, but until then I quite like it!
VxDuncan said:
You get lots of comfort features (auto apply, hill hold, drive away release etc).
The comfort features are possible with traditional handbrakes, VAG and Ford have certainly managed to offer auto release, auto apply and hill hold. Admittedly the systems as implemented use the main disk brakes.MG CHRIS said:
So a jag s-type turned up in work wanting a service we were not busy so guy left the car parked outside the office. Half hour later went to start the service and the f
king handbrake will not release. Spent most of the day trying to find a way to release it tried everything and will not release. Why the fk do manufactures put st expensive electronics on handbrakes what the fk is wrong with a lever and a cable.
Other than that i had a good day at work.
http://s287.photobucket.com/user/alveraa90/library...king handbrake will not release. Spent most of the day trying to find a way to release it tried everything and will not release. Why the fk do manufactures put st expensive electronics on handbrakes what the fk is wrong with a lever and a cable. Other than that i had a good day at work.
Here is how to release the Handbrake on an S type Jag
the wires power the EPB motor if you hear it trying to wind further on reverse wire and motor will release.
My failure proved to be the EPB module last Winter.
Make sure Battery is tip top also as the S type does not do well with a run down battery.
Edited by V400TC on Tuesday 10th September 02:24
I have an S-Type and the electronic parking brake works fine. It declutters the cabin a lot and makes space for proper drinks holders and a decent armrest for both front occupants. The S-Type is a large family car with more need of comforts than the ability to initiate drifts with handbrake by PH driving gods.
A couple of points:
a) Jag drivers are rarely the sort of muppets who want to pull handbrake turns
b) It engages automatically when parked to prevent even lazier people from parking the car on the automatic gearbox
c) You can't pushstart an automatic car the size of an S-Type so you're loosing zip there
d) It tells you in the owners manual how to park the car without the parking brake, so anyone suggesting it's to prevent home maintenance should stick to tinfoil hats.
It's not the car's fault that the OP's garage staff lacked the wit to look up on the internet how to work on a mid-market car built in the last decade - sorry. I've done all my own brakes on mine since I've had it and the EPB is great. It's self-calibrating so no worries there. A failure of the motor is no more likely than a failure of anything else likely to immobilise a modern car.
I bet you lot bemoan the lack of a manual choke and lack of a starting handle on the front too?
A couple of points:
a) Jag drivers are rarely the sort of muppets who want to pull handbrake turns
b) It engages automatically when parked to prevent even lazier people from parking the car on the automatic gearbox
c) You can't pushstart an automatic car the size of an S-Type so you're loosing zip there
d) It tells you in the owners manual how to park the car without the parking brake, so anyone suggesting it's to prevent home maintenance should stick to tinfoil hats.
It's not the car's fault that the OP's garage staff lacked the wit to look up on the internet how to work on a mid-market car built in the last decade - sorry. I've done all my own brakes on mine since I've had it and the EPB is great. It's self-calibrating so no worries there. A failure of the motor is no more likely than a failure of anything else likely to immobilise a modern car.
I bet you lot bemoan the lack of a manual choke and lack of a starting handle on the front too?
A more complicated, less efficient way of doing the same job not as well, so the marketing people can say its a 'feature' because its electronic. Yup, sounds like modern progress to me.
Out of interest do the electronics let you apply them at all while moving (ie if your regular braking system fails), or is it another case of 'computah says noo'?
Out of interest do the electronics let you apply them at all while moving (ie if your regular braking system fails), or is it another case of 'computah says noo'?
If you try to engage by flicking the button it beeps when moving but IIRC the book says to hold the button "ON" and it does engage emergency brake I think - I've never tried it. I'll check when home.
Each to their own but I'd rather not have the handbrake lever there and when it's time to do the chassis resto and retrim in the Cerbera I'd consider a simple electronic one as the handbrake lever is big, in the way and in a useless position that's renowned for being difficult to operate.
Efficiency is debateable. How efficient is it to accomodate an 18" long lever in the cabin where the driver can pull directly on it that isn't just in the way? A small and easy-to-use button is much more efficient use of space IMO and a DC motor winding in a pair of cables is hardly the cutting edge of technology is it? The S-Type's one is actually better than some other cars I've had to maintain because everything you need to get at can be got at without removing exhausts and heatshields up the transmission tunnel to get to adjusters and all that nonsense. I lost most of the skin on my fingers fixing a broken traditional handbrake on both the Mondeo derived Cougar and Accord derived Rover 600s who's cables ran above heatshielding that wasn't designed to be removed- very efficient!
I'd be very happy to buy another family car with an electronic parking brake.
Each to their own but I'd rather not have the handbrake lever there and when it's time to do the chassis resto and retrim in the Cerbera I'd consider a simple electronic one as the handbrake lever is big, in the way and in a useless position that's renowned for being difficult to operate.
Efficiency is debateable. How efficient is it to accomodate an 18" long lever in the cabin where the driver can pull directly on it that isn't just in the way? A small and easy-to-use button is much more efficient use of space IMO and a DC motor winding in a pair of cables is hardly the cutting edge of technology is it? The S-Type's one is actually better than some other cars I've had to maintain because everything you need to get at can be got at without removing exhausts and heatshields up the transmission tunnel to get to adjusters and all that nonsense. I lost most of the skin on my fingers fixing a broken traditional handbrake on both the Mondeo derived Cougar and Accord derived Rover 600s who's cables ran above heatshielding that wasn't designed to be removed- very efficient!
I'd be very happy to buy another family car with an electronic parking brake.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Tuesday 10th September 07:31
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Tuesday 10th September 07:52
VxDuncan said:
Acting on the transmission?
On Land Rovers maybe, but plenty have conventional rear drum handbrakes, e.g. Toyota Landcruiser, Mitsubish Shogun and the big pickups like the Navara and L200. Handbrake power has little to nothing to do with the adoption of electric handbrakes IMO.Features like hill hold are reliant on the cars ESP/Brakeing system NOT THE HANDBRAKE
There is nothing wrong with a mechanical lever system, its simple, works well on Japanese cars with drums (the MX5 is an Exception) My 25 year old Landcruiser happily does handbrake turns in the snow.
Note to company cars drivers et al, the "New" Mazda 6 has a proper handbrake as proper drivers requested a proper handbrake. It also has hill hold etc & they do handbrake turns with ease
There is nothing wrong with a mechanical lever system, its simple, works well on Japanese cars with drums (the MX5 is an Exception) My 25 year old Landcruiser happily does handbrake turns in the snow.
Note to company cars drivers et al, the "New" Mazda 6 has a proper handbrake as proper drivers requested a proper handbrake. It also has hill hold etc & they do handbrake turns with ease
I have an electric `parking' brake on the Passat (can't really call it a handbrake, as it is more of a `finger' brake) and it is at best alright, but I would definitely prefer a hand brake.
It has a feature known as autohold, which like all things which are `supposed' to be `automatic' is fine when it works, and a pain in the a*se when it doesn't.
When the parking brake is engaged, either on level ground or on a hill, you can `usually' just pull
away, and the brake releases itself without any fuss, but sometimes it does not let go, and the back of the car dips as you try to pull away dragging the locked back wheels along the ground. At other times, the thing does not let go at all despite having ones foot on foot brakes and repeatedly stabbing at the button on the dash. The other other advantage of a `hand' brake is that it is one more braking system which could be used progressively in an emergency. I am not sure what would happen if one stabbed on the handbrake button at speed (it may drag the wheels off the back of the vehicle?) because when I tried pressing the brake button with a tiny bit of movement still on the car (not enough to even move the speedo needle off its stop)it slammed to a halt, nearly shooting my teeth fillings out with the inertia. so I would not be inclined to try it at even 1mph.
So For me a `proper' hand brake every time. I put it in the same (definitely) not wanted bin as the Vauxhall indicator stalk.
It has a feature known as autohold, which like all things which are `supposed' to be `automatic' is fine when it works, and a pain in the a*se when it doesn't.
When the parking brake is engaged, either on level ground or on a hill, you can `usually' just pull
away, and the brake releases itself without any fuss, but sometimes it does not let go, and the back of the car dips as you try to pull away dragging the locked back wheels along the ground. At other times, the thing does not let go at all despite having ones foot on foot brakes and repeatedly stabbing at the button on the dash. The other other advantage of a `hand' brake is that it is one more braking system which could be used progressively in an emergency. I am not sure what would happen if one stabbed on the handbrake button at speed (it may drag the wheels off the back of the vehicle?) because when I tried pressing the brake button with a tiny bit of movement still on the car (not enough to even move the speedo needle off its stop)it slammed to a halt, nearly shooting my teeth fillings out with the inertia. so I would not be inclined to try it at even 1mph.
So For me a `proper' hand brake every time. I put it in the same (definitely) not wanted bin as the Vauxhall indicator stalk.
The Jaguar one is very simple. It engages when you put the car in park and remove the ignition key unless you hold the switch down (OP - that's how to do it).
It disengages when you have the engine running and shift from Park to Reverse or Drive if it was engaged beforehand.
It engages if you pull the switch up and stationary (or hold for E-brake) and disengages if you either push the switch down or just drive away.
It doesn't engage when you stop at traffic lights or on hills or anything like that. Some 2004MY cars had recalls due to uncommanded application but should have all been addressed years ago. The Jaguar system is very reliable and just does what it says on the tin.
It disengages when you have the engine running and shift from Park to Reverse or Drive if it was engaged beforehand.
It engages if you pull the switch up and stationary (or hold for E-brake) and disengages if you either push the switch down or just drive away.
It doesn't engage when you stop at traffic lights or on hills or anything like that. Some 2004MY cars had recalls due to uncommanded application but should have all been addressed years ago. The Jaguar system is very reliable and just does what it says on the tin.
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