RE: McLaren MP4-12C, Now With Added 'Phwoarr'

[E21_Ross]

Rich_W said:

I dunno. I don't care. McLaren wanted to be "different" to Ferrari. That's commendable. But they went the wrong way. And THAT'S the real problem. (With the secondary one being the 2 year hype and how it will be "better than Ferrari")

p.s nice way to dodge my salient points though No one noticed...

you're missing the point. they went the wrong way IN YOUR OPINION.

[007 VXR]

Just a quick question.

How many people on this thread have driven both cars, and know what they are talking about

[toppstuff]

007 VXR said:

Just a quick question.

How many people on this thread have driven both cars, and know what they are talking about

Well of course, no-one has.

This is the internet. And it involves Ferrari.

Therefore, it's tribal.

[Walton]

Rich_W said:

Only thus far it hasn't has it...

At the end of the day, buyer's will decide if there is a demand for a subtle £200k supercar, and going by the order book there is.

Do you still think "Ron's pre-order cupboard is bare", as you confidently stated 6 months ago?

[TVRWannabee]

toppstuff said:

007 VXR said:

Just a quick question.

How many people on this thread have driven both cars, and know what they are talking about

Well of course, no-one has.

This is the internet. And it involves Ferrari.

Therefore, it's tribal.

'Zactly.

[Daisy Duke]

toppstuff said:

007 VXR said:

Just a quick question.

How many people on this thread have driven both cars, and know what they are talking about

Well of course, no-one has.

This is the internet. And it involves Ferrari.

Therefore, it's tribal.

I have to say I was surprised at how tribal it was, when I started the buying process I quite naively thought I was choosing a car just based on what appealed to me, not the history of F1. I can't claim to be able to compare the two based on driving them (I was comparing the MP4-12C to the M600 and wasn't particularly interested in the 458), but I know a fair few who are in that position. A couple chose to have both (probably because they can), one chose the McLaren (I think because it's more practical, but I'm not entirely sure) and a couple chose the 458 because it excited them more. I'm not sure if that helps anyone's argument, the only conclusion I came to was that different things appeal to different people.

As to someone asking about F1 owners, I do know of one (other than Jay Leno) who is buying one, but I'm not sure that's relevant either.

[Dagnut]

Daisy Duke said:

toppstuff said:

007 VXR said:

Just a quick question.

How many people on this thread have driven both cars, and know what they are talking about

Well of course, no-one has.

This is the internet. And it involves Ferrari.

Therefore, it's tribal.

I have to say I was surprised at how tribal it was, when I started the buying process I quite naively thought I was choosing a car just based on what appealed to me, not the history of F1. I can't claim to be able to compare the two based on driving them (I was comparing the MP4-12C to the M600 and wasn't particularly interested in the 458), but I know a fair few who are in that position. A couple chose to have both (probably because they can), one chose the McLaren (I think because it's more practical, but I'm not entirely sure) and a couple chose the 458 because it excited them more. I'm not sure if that helps anyone's argument, the only conclusion I came to was that different things appeal to different people.

As to someone asking about F1 owners, I do know of one (other than Jay Leno) who is buying one, but I'm not sure that's relevant either.

You can't win either way, if you buy the 458 you're just a badge merchant worried about image...if you buy the McLaren you're boring.

[anonymous-user]

Dagnut said:

You can't win either way, if you buy the 458 you're just a badge merchant worried about image...if you buy the McLaren you're boring.

funny thing is, as good as it is, there's no way my mrs would let me get an italia precisely because of the image

[sone]

fbrs said:

Dagnut said:

You can't win either way, if you buy the 458 you're just a badge merchant worried about image...if you buy the McLaren you're boring.

funny thing is, as good as it is, there's no way my mrs would let me get an italia precisely because of the image

My Mrs said this about the image before I bought my first Ferrari, however as soon as I bought one and she went out in it that was soon forgotten. I just keep my chest wig under the seat for when I'm on my own.

[Walton]

Some in-car footage demonstrating the new intake mods (standard exhaust):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2PHzyBx-fM&fea...

Sounds OK to me....

[E21_Ross]

Walton said:

Some in-car footage demonstrating the new intake mods (standard exhaust):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2PHzyBx-fM&fea...

Sounds OK to me....

certainly wouldn't say a 458 sounds any better, not to me at least!

to be honest, they sound remarkably similar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swnFmYaaaFw (skip to about 20secs)

[LongLiveTazio]

Looks insanely smooth and fast in that vid.

[Rich_W]

E21_Ross said:

you're missing the point. they went the wrong way IN YOUR OPINION.

Yup. And the majority of journos that have driven the car and a percentage of those here. TBH When the spec was launched 3 things jumped out. Turbos, Paddle shift, No LSD. 3 things that would never have happened if Murray was still there. The purists (who LOVED the F1 for its technical direction) were not being catered for here it seemed.

Going O/T did you see BBC F1 today. McLaren haven't won the constructors since 98! I was amazed.

Walton said:

Rich_W said:

Only thus far it hasn't has it...

At the end of the day, buyer's will decide if there is a demand for a subtle £200k supercar, and going by the order book there is.

Do you still think "Ron's pre-order cupboard is bare", as you confidently stated 6 months ago?

My comment was in relation to topstuffs. Nothing to do with demand for the car.

toppstuff said:

Watch this car cream the 458's in GT racing..

That car HASN'T creamed anything in the one event it's attended. Blind faith in a cars ability BEFORE it's proved anything is fairly sad don't you think? If it turns out great brilliant. But lets not get ahead of ourselves. Or start implying that Ferrari have no clue what they are doing (though funny that the race 12C has a LSD and normal suspension. Maybe regulations, maybe it's just not very good )

AS for pre-orders. Seems to be the case now. 18 months delivery time was quoted above. So that's 1500 ish cars? Dresay 1/3 are speculators mind. Same thing happens whenever a car is launched. I saw Veyrons advertised at 1.6M few months after launch.

Anyway. I wouldn't buy either Ferrari or McLaren. For all it's flaws I'd have a GT3RS if I was able to. Something far more honest about how it interacts with the driver.

[E21_Ross]

the suspension + LSD changes for the racer are due to regulations only, they had to change it. they didn't have an LSD because the electric system allows better variability than a mechanical one as well as being lighter, so i see no reason at all to use a traditional one? what they've done is pretty clever. their brake steer system allows even better traction out of corners, especially in the wet. maybe that's why journos don't like it? it's too hard to drift unless you turn it all off of course.

turbo - so bloody what? McLaren seemed adamant to get eco figures from the car, N/A doesn't allow that. the journos have said you can't really tell it's turbo, besides, it revs to 8500rpm which is pretty bloody good for a road going, turbo charged V8!!!! from that recent video it sounds awfully similar to a 458, so what is it you don't like about turbo charging in this car? it gives it awesome power and torque from just about idle.

paddleshift - what's wrong with them? the dual clutch jobbies are fantastic bits of kit. they use those in motorsport too, you know i agree a fully-fledged manual is possibly more involving, but they've come a seriously long way in the last few years.

the journos are thinking this car was meant to be an outright track car which is supposed to go drifting all the time, that's the problem. they test them on tracks, not on public roads. Macca said from the get-go that it was a ROAD car, with daily driving in mind.

people who don't like this car never will, because it's not what they were expecting. however, it cannot be denied that for what McLaren wanted of the car, it's probably the best out there. they should be proud.

Edited by E21_Ross on Saturday 23 July 21:01

[JonRB]

E21_Ross said:

maybe that's why journos don't like it? it's too hard to drift unless you turn it all off of course.

Sorry to sound like a cracked record here, but what is this obsession with drifting all about anyway?

[E21_Ross]

JonRB said:

E21_Ross said:

maybe that's why journos don't like it? it's too hard to drift unless you turn it all off of course.

Sorry to sound like a cracked record here, but what is this obsession with drifting all about anyway?

Because journalists tell the public what the car is like when larking about in a wide open space rather than on public roads. This, of course, is extremely relevant

To be honest I don't know. It's fun and makes for good pictures but isn't a good way of seeing how a car is to live with day to day.

[JonRB]

E21_Ross said:

Because journalists tell the public what the car is like when larking about in a wide open space rather than on public roads. This, of course, is extremely relevant

To be honest I don't know. It's fun and makes for good pictures but isn't a good way of seeing how a car is to live with day to day.

Quite

[minimatt1967]

JonRB said:

E21_Ross said:

Because journalists tell the public what the car is like when larking about in a wide open space rather than on public roads. This, of course, is extremely relevant

To be honest I don't know. It's fun and makes for good pictures but isn't a good way of seeing how a car is to live with day to day.

Quite

One of my major criticisms of fifth gear, in particular Tiff Needell, is the whole 'drift-abilty +fun' which is ridiculous.

[ufoufo]

IMHO the comparison of the MP4 with the NSX is unfair. Although the nsx was a very good car, back in the early 1990s a "japanese" car could not compete with a Ferrari no matter how flawed the 348 was.

To those who believe that the MP4 will not excite because it does not look as flamboyant as the 458, i would suggest to think for a minute of the audi r8 - no at all as flamboyant as the MP4 (not as wide, low) yet its a car that even after 4 years on uk roads never fails to turn heads.(and they re always in silver - not at all a shouty colour!)

I suspect that the MP4 will do very well because its a McLaren, its british, people have seen it on Top Gear lap extraordinary fast, and when they see it on the road it will look stunning. Just my gut instinct.

[AUDIHenry]

This is just sad. Instead of standing by what they believe to be a superior product, McLaren is tripping over itself trying to implement dumb, cosmetic changes to the vehicle to please reviewers. How can you inspire confidence in your product in this way? When was the last time Ferrari scrambled to channel more noise into the cabin or otherwise take reporters' and reviewers' criticisms to heart? Hell, its cars are burning down left and right and it doesn't so much as raise a finger.