RE: McLaren MP4-12C, Now With Added 'Phwoarr'
Discussion
varsas said:
James has always been the 'slow, engineery one who can't drive', the straight man if you like
Which is ironic as he actually looks pretty handy behind the wheel. They rarely let it be seen, of course, but you'll notice in one road trip where he was in a silver Ferrari front-engined convertible (not sure which of the 5's it was - 575 maybe?) he was very competent. Likewise when he had tuition with Jackie Stewart in TVR Tuscan 2 Convertible.
But reality probably has very little bearing on the "characters" they play when on camera.
Someone I know has one on order in that Volcano Red colour and it was my choice when I day-dreamed my way through the McLaren configurator last year...
The major delay in delivery has been the problem sourcing a 'portrait' style satnav system to fit the slim centre console, one manufacturer failed to meet specs early on, another US company 'allegedly' destroyed a car when an unauthorised employee took it out for a joyride so they were rejected and finally production problems caused by the Japanese tsunami have delayed it further still... so I believe
The major delay in delivery has been the problem sourcing a 'portrait' style satnav system to fit the slim centre console, one manufacturer failed to meet specs early on, another US company 'allegedly' destroyed a car when an unauthorised employee took it out for a joyride so they were rejected and finally production problems caused by the Japanese tsunami have delayed it further still... so I believe
Alfa numeric said:
I want to desire this car but after reading the initial test I didn't, and I found that a real shame.
And that is the problem. And it demonstrates the power of journalism, if a single magazine can set a narrative that may influence your own point of view. Of course, we look to those people who do have the good fortune to drive these cars to help us form an opinion. This is true of all journalism. But this only works if we trust the journalist or the motive of the publication they are writing for.
I do not trust EVO, Autocar or indeed any of the motoring press. The big problem ( as so well described in another post above ) is that the press have been passing off subjective points of view as fact.
The Mclaren clearly is at least the equal of the 458 from a technical or objective point of view. But clearly the 458 image, kudos and noise was preferred by a good number of journo's. But this is entirely subjective. I have a problem when this subjective view is then translated to a 'fact" with a headline saying that the "458 beats Mclaren".
The narrative spun from the magazines does influence opinion - it influenced you. I am just making the point that we need to separate the subjective from the objective and the likes of EVO are not helping us do this.
There are plenty of people who do not want the traditional supercar image. There are plenty of people who want a stealthier, quieter car without the "image baggage" of a traditional supercar. This is subjective too, but clearly it is a view not understood by the motoring press when they get given a car for 48 hours and the chance to rag it around a track. It is a point of view that the press should pay more respect to.
Edited by toppstuff on Tuesday 19th July 12:51
I am impressed they've listened to what has been said and responded. I am also a little sad that they haven't stood by their product but, the market dictates and the ONLY people they need to cater to are the people with orders and potential clients. There might be a few of them on the list who won't take kindly to the fact the cabin in their day-to-day car is going to get a lot louder 
Justices said:
I am impressed they've listened to what has been said and responded. I am also a little sad that they haven't stood by their product but, the market dictates and the ONLY people they need to cater to are the people with orders and potential clients. There might be a few of them on the list who won't take kindly to the fact the cabin in their day-to-day car is going to get a lot louder
The first thing that entered my head when I read the article was - do I have to have that feature or can I deselect it?? !!varsas said:
LongLiveTazio said:
I find it interesting that Top Gear have recently started slating 'the Nurburgring' as some omnipresent car-ruining monster, considering they and others seem to test cars on tracks disproportionately to road, which is most likely not how they will be used for the majority of the time.
Top Gear or James May? Or are they the same thing? I see the presenters as individuals, and just 'cos one of them says something doesn't mean it's the 'Top Gear' view. James has always been the 'slow, engineery one who can't drive', the straight man if you like, while the others have been the more traditional 'OMG look at that spoiler...this car is sooo fast' type characters. It gives a nice balance. What I find funny is the amount of people who slated the GTR as a soulless technical playstation spin-off... are now furious that the motoring press has labelled the Mclaren the same !!!
Fifth gear, Top gear,Car, Evo, Autocar...the list goes on..is this a mass conspiracy? Or aret hey applying subjective opinion on what car they like best?
I haven't driven both cars back to back but neither have 99.9999% of readers here, yet your happy to jump to the defence of the McLaren??
I don't really know either way, personally I would choose the Mclaren because for me it's more special than a 458, but most of you are talking out your arses.
Fifth gear, Top gear,Car, Evo, Autocar...the list goes on..is this a mass conspiracy? Or aret hey applying subjective opinion on what car they like best?
I haven't driven both cars back to back but neither have 99.9999% of readers here, yet your happy to jump to the defence of the McLaren??
I don't really know either way, personally I would choose the Mclaren because for me it's more special than a 458, but most of you are talking out your arses.
LongLiveTazio said:
And yet the same mags rate the GT3 RS 4.0 as being 'more involving', having a more authentic sound, more feelsome steering, a 'proper driver's car'... but I wonder if they'd actually choose it over the 458 if they had the cold, hard cash in their hand.
Chris Harris said he'd have a (3.8) GT3 for a drive but a 458 as his only car for life, but I understand your point.
LongLiveTazio said:
I see it as different strokes for different folks, not that one car is objectively better than the other. All the comparisons I've seen are splitting hairs and don't really take in to account the cars as everyday objects, their overall usability, the image, the service from the dealers, running costs over the course of ownership, etc.
Considering quite a few actual Ferrari owners seem to prefer the Scuderia to the 458 I would take the mags' views with a hefty pinch of salt.
EVO (and to a lesser extent Car) don't do the Autocar style of roadtests though- their priority is how the cars drive rather than what they are like as an ownership prospect. They've admitted themselves that sometimes the car that wins a comparison isn't the one that they'd buy themselves (ie M3 over an RS4). The point of a comparison roadtest though is to find a winner, and this is not only reached by objective means.Considering quite a few actual Ferrari owners seem to prefer the Scuderia to the 458 I would take the mags' views with a hefty pinch of salt.
I'm a McLaren fan. The F1 is number one on my lottery wish list and I was willing the MP4-12C to blow everything away. They set out to build a Device For Travelling Quickly that can be used every day and in that they succeeded admirably- the trouble is in the real world this isn't the be all and end all of supercar ownership. The conclusions of the magazines and the reaction of the factory to those conclusions reflect that and to suggest that the magazines all skewed the result to sell magazines is a little unfair.
SkintEastwood said:
Maybe the extra noise will blur the customers vision so they cant see that they have bought such a bland looking (for a supercar)yoke?
Merely bolting on a fancy induction kit dosent cut it really.
It dosent make it a more "emotional" car to drive shirley, that would have been in it's DNA from the ground up no?
Absolutely agree. McLaren have designed what I guess we should all have expected - a 'phenomenally' competent car, but suspension aside, it is not game changing ...and the bits which are, I'm not sure I want them to be. In order to succeed in this super competitve segment (v.different from the F1 - money no object design spec, tiny volume), has to stand out because there is already so much highly competent competition to chose from. They have clealry tried to make the car as accessible as possible to as many people as possible, but in doing so, they have fundamentally missed the point of why people buy these cars. As has been said many times before on this and other strands, supercars have to excite you. I like / admire this car, but I do not love it. Ultimate everyday hack if you have a proper 'supercar' in the garage as well (i.e. the complete package - Aventador springs to mind of the current crop - acknowledge might be slower in the real world but it def has what a supercar needs to have - wow factor in abundance) absolutely buy it - Mclaren has a purpose. As your only pride and joy - not for me, deeply accomplished as it unquestionably is. Think they have missed a trick with this one.Merely bolting on a fancy induction kit dosent cut it really.
It dosent make it a more "emotional" car to drive shirley, that would have been in it's DNA from the ground up no?
Very impressed with McLaren's response speed, and their customer focus; almost everything I've heard about Ferrari suggest that their dealers are truculent and the factory cultivates an 'actually you should consider yourself lucky we let you buy one' culture (I'm thinking of the stuff Harris has written recently on what it's like to get on the wrong side of Maranello, even as an owner).
Jay Leno has written several really good pieces on why he likes the MP4, and McLaren as a supplier and I suspect people in the market for a 200k supercar won't buy based on what EVO, Autocar, or anyone else says: it'll be their fit with the values and customer experience of the marque.
Jay Leno has written several really good pieces on why he likes the MP4, and McLaren as a supplier and I suspect people in the market for a 200k supercar won't buy based on what EVO, Autocar, or anyone else says: it'll be their fit with the values and customer experience of the marque.
Alfa numeric said:
At the end of the day these cars are indulgencies, not A to B transport, so the heart rules just as much as the head in the buying process.
It is not just at this level that the heart rules. How many people people reject some of the cheaper options from the Far East without having a close look, or even a test drive.FWDRacer said:
A car company that listens to its customers.
They'll go far.
I agree. That's an impressive attitude by McLaren I think.They'll go far.
As for all the noise/soul debate it's a bit silly really when you consider two of the quietest supercars have been the Veyron and McLaren Mercedes SLR. The expression 'all show and no go' leaps to mind sometimes.
And, no, I haven't driven an MP4-12C (sadly) but of course PH members have and have placed orders. And production is sold out for two years.
'Nuff said.
otolith said:
I've certainly seen the criticism made in print before.
It was Richard Porter, ironically in his column in Evo. I'm sure the fact that he was banging the drum against development at the 'ring some time ago and just happens to be the script editor for Top Gear is merely coincidental...i do wonder how many potential buyers really are influenced by what the journo's write. it is interesting to read other peoples opinions of course, but they are only a guide when it comes to their input on the subjective points.
the reality is that the journo's only have a test car for a very short space of time to form an opinion, usually 48hrs, quite often with high end stuff even less. they are pressured not only by time constraints, but also what the other mags are saying.
as a buyer the judgement criteria is quite different. as an example is the purchaser buying the car to supplement other cars he or she owns, or is it going to be a sole or daily driver. some cars shout their talents at you and others reveal them over a period of time. a perfect car can quickly become dull, whereas one with flaws that you refine your ability to drive around can be more endearing.
it's not an exact science motoring journalism, but i for one enjoy reading car mags even when i disagree with their conclusions.
the reality is that the journo's only have a test car for a very short space of time to form an opinion, usually 48hrs, quite often with high end stuff even less. they are pressured not only by time constraints, but also what the other mags are saying.
as a buyer the judgement criteria is quite different. as an example is the purchaser buying the car to supplement other cars he or she owns, or is it going to be a sole or daily driver. some cars shout their talents at you and others reveal them over a period of time. a perfect car can quickly become dull, whereas one with flaws that you refine your ability to drive around can be more endearing.
it's not an exact science motoring journalism, but i for one enjoy reading car mags even when i disagree with their conclusions.
Or888t said:
rob.e said:
I expect this will just be the start of the McLaren response to the recent press putting the 458 ahead.
I have a copy of the autocar on my desk from last month "Ferrari beats new McLaren" - I bet Ron was fuming when he saw that!
I fully expect F1-team style continual improvement until they have a better car than the itailians, although I am more than a little surprised they didn't do some independent benchmarking with a 458 prior to letting the mags and fifth gear loose on the car..
Sorry but Ferrari beats McLaren. What are you on about. the macca is better in everyway, except from so called 'soul' or whatever.I have a copy of the autocar on my desk from last month "Ferrari beats new McLaren" - I bet Ron was fuming when he saw that!
I fully expect F1-team style continual improvement until they have a better car than the itailians, although I am more than a little surprised they didn't do some independent benchmarking with a 458 prior to letting the mags and fifth gear loose on the car..
JonnyFive said:
I reckon the McLaren will do the same, it won't shout about it, it'll just come out and do its thing.
Thus making it the quintessential British super sports car, in a similar way albeit less 'heavy handed', as the 70's Aston Martin V8. Not waving its arms around saying "look at me, look at me", it just gets on with the business of going bloody quickly.I like, I want.
toppstuff said:
Alfa numeric said:
I want to desire this car but after reading the initial test I didn't, and I found that a real shame.
And that is the problem. And it demonstrates the power of journalism, if a single magazine can set a narrative that may influence your own point of view. toppstuff said:
Of course, we look to those people who do have the good fortune to drive these cars to help us form an opinion. This is true of all journalism. But this only works if we trust the journalist or the motive of the publication they are writing for.
I do not trust EVO, Autocar or indeed any of the motoring press. The big problem ( as so well described in another post above ) is that the press have been passing off subjective points of view as fact.
The Mclaren clearly is at least the equal of the 458 from a technical or objective point of view. But clearly the 458 image, kudos and noise was preferred by a good number of journo's. But this is entirely subjective. I have a problem when this subjective view is then translated to a 'fact" with a headline saying that the "458 beats Mclaren".
The narrative spun from the magazines does influence opinion - it influenced you. I am just making the point that we need to separate the subjective from the objective and the likes of EVO are not helping us do this.
There are plenty of people who do not want the traditional supercar image. There are plenty of people who want a stealthier, quieter car without the "image baggage" of a traditional supercar. This is subjective too, but clearly it is a view not understood by the motoring press when they get given a car for 48 hours and the chance to rag it around a track. It is a point of view that the press should pay more respect to.
I think you're reading too much into their test- I've never accepted thir conclusions as fact and have always seen them as only their opinion. There's numerous examples of them saying "X wins, but we wouldn't blame you if you bought Y" and in EVO's ECOTY and other large tests they often quote differing viwes on a car. Like you I'm not in the lucky position of being able to sample these cars, so I respect the views of those who have. EVO gave their reasons for preferring the 458 (and Noble, and Ford GT) and they weren't all subjective. They sited the gearchange, steering and ride at 7/10ths (IIRC they said it was like sitting on top of a beachball). They also seemed to be very impressed with the MP4-12C as it was however and far from condemned it.I do not trust EVO, Autocar or indeed any of the motoring press. The big problem ( as so well described in another post above ) is that the press have been passing off subjective points of view as fact.
The Mclaren clearly is at least the equal of the 458 from a technical or objective point of view. But clearly the 458 image, kudos and noise was preferred by a good number of journo's. But this is entirely subjective. I have a problem when this subjective view is then translated to a 'fact" with a headline saying that the "458 beats Mclaren".
The narrative spun from the magazines does influence opinion - it influenced you. I am just making the point that we need to separate the subjective from the objective and the likes of EVO are not helping us do this.
There are plenty of people who do not want the traditional supercar image. There are plenty of people who want a stealthier, quieter car without the "image baggage" of a traditional supercar. This is subjective too, but clearly it is a view not understood by the motoring press when they get given a car for 48 hours and the chance to rag it around a track. It is a point of view that the press should pay more respect to.
Would I dismiss a McLaren if I suddenly found £160k behind the sofa and was in the market for such a car? No. I'd try it along with the Ferrari, SLS and other cars in this price range and draw my own conclusion.
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