RE: SOTW: BMW 740i (E38)

RE: SOTW: BMW 740i (E38)

Author
Discussion

bennyboydurham

1,617 posts

173 months

Tuesday 2nd August 2011
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BertieWooster said:
Could the 728 be classed as being underpowered at all? I'm looking at moving closer to work with the aim of reducing my daily commute from around 60 miles to about 8 and am seriously thinking about getting something German and barge like. I've just seen this on autotrader and my wallet is starting to twitch! FSH and just over 84k on the clock seem pretty good to me - although I wonder whether there is anything nasty lurking under the surface.

Bertie W
Nope the 728i is what I'd term a 98.9% car. It does everything brilliantly 98.9% of the time in normal driving. If you need a 100% car then you need a 750i! As previously said the gearing is nicely set up to keep you moving along at a reasonable lick and only if you're really caning it does it sound and feel a bit coarse. But somehow I always found with my 728 that I never really drove it like that as it just didn't suit the car and it definitely flatters your driving as everything happens so smoothly.

B'stard Child

28,282 posts

245 months

Tuesday 2nd August 2011
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poshgit said:
B'stard Child said:
Not sure what you were aiming at with that comment - please explain?
Have a look on bimmerforums for loads of e46 with gbox probs. Same with e38. I had an XK8 that lunched itself on it's gbox at 120k after an oil change on it at 110k. Expert opinion (from the forums and the 11 - yes 11(!) independent auto gbox specialists that I consulted before getting the gbox rebuilt) indicates that the sealed for life gbox oil shouldn't be changed. But you are caught between a rick and a hard place. Leave the oil too long, generally over 100k and it degrades so much that the gbox lunches itself. Or get the oil changed at this level and run the risk that you dislodge all the cack that then lodges itself in the fine oilways....and the gbox then lunches itself!......loads of web info on it on the forums and from the specialists......hope that helps (I experienced it first hand too!)
OK thanks for the explaination - Can we debate it a bit without getting confrontational or heated?

From my perspective having owned quite a few autos over the years and here's my take on it and I haven't asked any specialists and certainly not 11

I currently run an E38 with a "sealed for life gearbox that has had a fluid/filter change (twice since I've owned it first time just after I got it with 97K miles and it still works fine - in fact better for a fluid change - my how to can be found in the BMW section (added link)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I helped my friend Will to do his E39 540 first (same gearbox as my E38) - bound to be a thread on his change on bimmerboard or one of the 5 series forums and I think he's covered nearly 100K since he changed his in 2007 so I've a high level of confidence that changing fluid does not equal failure......

One - Autoboxes don't take kindly to dirt/debris being introduced to their internals so cleanlines is important when carrying out a fluid change

Two - Autoboxes have a filter - filter collects debris - to do a fluid change it makes sense to me to change the filter and clean out the sump/magnets etc - if the change "frees up" some "cack" a new filter is in a better position to trap it than an old and probably overloaded one.

Three - Changing the fluid when a box is already exhibitting faults/problems isn't going to fix the problem - my feeling is from reading posts on the internets is that is some cases people have had the work done "hoping" it would fix the problem and then bhed that it didn't and whatever was going wrong got worse.

Four - If an autobox was a true sealed for life item it would have no drain plug or filling point -

Five - "sealed for life" - what's a life - is 100,000 miles a reasonable life - expiry of the warrenty maybe, perhaps even 10 years could be a life - with modern cars capable of covering a heck of a lot of miles before major issues and parts support with some manufacturers being only 10 years I could see why a manufacturer would want the cars to have a finite life before replacement.

Six - (This probably should be top of the list) it really really important to get the level right - autoboxes don't like being run low on fluid - took me several cold checks to get my fluid level to a point where I was happy with it and I certainly put more back in than I removed......


BertieWooster

3,217 posts

163 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2011
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bennyboydurham said:
Nope the 728i is what I'd term a 98.9% car. It does everything brilliantly 98.9% of the time in normal driving. If you need a 100% car then you need a 750i! As previously said the gearing is nicely set up to keep you moving along at a reasonable lick and only if you're really caning it does it sound and feel a bit coarse. But somehow I always found with my 728 that I never really drove it like that as it just didn't suit the car and it definitely flatters your driving as everything happens so smoothly.
Thanks for the advice. I guess a 728 shed is what I will be after once I've moved. I'd much prefer to waft along in one of those than cane it anyway.

Bertie W

B'stard Child

28,282 posts

245 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2011
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poshgit said:
Have a look on bimmerforums for loads of e46 with gbox probs. Same with e38. I had an XK8 that lunched itself on it's gbox at 120k after an oil change on it at 110k. Expert opinion (from the forums and the 11 - yes 11(!) independent auto gbox specialists that I consulted before getting the gbox rebuilt) indicates that the sealed for life gbox oil shouldn't be changed. But you are caught between a rick and a hard place. Leave the oil too long, generally over 100k and it degrades so much that the gbox lunches itself. Or get the oil changed at this level and run the risk that you dislodge all the cack that then lodges itself in the fine oilways....and the gbox then lunches itself!......loads of web info on it on the forums and from the specialists......hope that helps (I experienced it first hand too!)
PS - again not wanting to have a ruck over the subject but this is a timely thread and I'd like to point you in the dirrection of it.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

How strange that a manufacturer of an automatic gearbox would recommend a fluid change on a sealed for life gearbox - lets face it they aren't forum experts or independant specialists - they just make the gearboxes

ZF in Germany said:
We recommend a gearbox oil change at 80- to 120000Km.

VeeFour

3,339 posts

161 months

Wednesday 3rd August 2011
quotequote all
ianwayne said:
If you 'ploughed into' anyone, the insurance company would have to pay out. It's the 3rd party risk that they are obliged to cover. If they could find a way to avoid paying out for damage to your car (if fully comp), they would, and they may prosecute to recover their costs.

I doubt very much an insurance company could use the excuse that the wheels are smaller than original spec. as just cause. Illegal / bald yes. But if they are on the car when you buy it, especially with BMW writren on them and not some after-market monstrosities, I expect you're OK.

In any case, it wouldn't be worth taking out fully comp cover on a shed, would it?
I'd have fully comp., as it's mostly cheaper than TPF&T for me anyway.

And yes, the insurers may well pay out the 3rd party claims, but they'd also come chasing you through the courts to recover their costs - which could amount to millions in payouts and legal fees. Enough to bankrupt you, anyway.

They would also check the speed rating on the tyres, the load rating, and wheel size vs OEM spec., and if unsuitable and / or undeclared, that would be a very reasonable excuse not to pay out.

poshgit

169 posts

219 months

Friday 5th August 2011
quotequote all
B'stard Child said:
poshgit said:
B'stard Child said:
Not sure what you were aiming at with that comment - please explain?
Have a look on bimmerforums for loads of e46 with gbox probs. Same with e38. I had an XK8 that lunched itself on it's gbox at 120k after an oil change on it at 110k. Expert opinion (from the forums and the 11 - yes 11(!) independent auto gbox specialists that I consulted before getting the gbox rebuilt) indicates that the sealed for life gbox oil shouldn't be changed. But you are caught between a rick and a hard place. Leave the oil too long, generally over 100k and it degrades so much that the gbox lunches itself. Or get the oil changed at this level and run the risk that you dislodge all the cack that then lodges itself in the fine oilways....and the gbox then lunches itself!......loads of web info on it on the forums and from the specialists......hope that helps (I experienced it first hand too!)
OK thanks for the explaination - Can we debate it a bit without getting confrontational or heated?

From my perspective having owned quite a few autos over the years and here's my take on it and I haven't asked any specialists and certainly not 11

I currently run an E38 with a "sealed for life gearbox that has had a fluid/filter change (twice since I've owned it first time just after I got it with 97K miles and it still works fine - in fact better for a fluid change - my how to can be found in the BMW section (added link)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I helped my friend Will to do his E39 540 first (same gearbox as my E38) - bound to be a thread on his change on bimmerboard or one of the 5 series forums and I think he's covered nearly 100K since he changed his in 2007 so I've a high level of confidence that changing fluid does not equal failure......

One - Autoboxes don't take kindly to dirt/debris being introduced to their internals so cleanlines is important when carrying out a fluid change

Two - Autoboxes have a filter - filter collects debris - to do a fluid change it makes sense to me to change the filter and clean out the sump/magnets etc - if the change "frees up" some "cack" a new filter is in a better position to trap it than an old and probably overloaded one.

Three - Changing the fluid when a box is already exhibitting faults/problems isn't going to fix the problem - my feeling is from reading posts on the internets is that is some cases people have had the work done "hoping" it would fix the problem and then bhed that it didn't and whatever was going wrong got worse.

Four - If an autobox was a true sealed for life item it would have no drain plug or filling point -

Five - "sealed for life" - what's a life - is 100,000 miles a reasonable life - expiry of the warrenty maybe, perhaps even 10 years could be a life - with modern cars capable of covering a heck of a lot of miles before major issues and parts support with some manufacturers being only 10 years I could see why a manufacturer would want the cars to have a finite life before replacement.

Six - (This probably should be top of the list) it really really important to get the level right - autoboxes don't like being run low on fluid - took me several cold checks to get my fluid level to a point where I was happy with it and I certainly put more back in than I removed......
sure....i'm no expert and only speaking from personal experience

i agree - its a bit chicken and egg....some people change the oil because of the gearbox going wrong -but i agree, nothing's going to help if g/box is on its way out anyway! (but would a maintainance change much earlier have helped - and why isnt is recommended by all the car manufacturers - if it is somewhere in their small print, then i would happily stand corrected)

100k is not sufficient lifespan - i do that in 3 years! we are talkng about cars built in the 21st century here - my E36 328 has 200+k miles on it and still going strong with regular engine oil changes - surely a ZF auto g/box should last that long too, or have a built in service schdule to accomodate that.

i think my main concern is that there is no recommended g/box oil change by the car manaufactures - the ZF makers, yes...but we only know that because we are petrolheads! belive me, bimmerforums has lots of posts of E46s with their "made of cheese" torque converters, with failing g/boxes.

A1 Premier Tranmissions Ltd, who rebuilt my XK8 g/box, have a yard full of RRs, Jags, BMWs etc with ZF g/box issues, they cant turn them around fast enough!

Now i agree we only hear about the bad ones on the forums - no one writes in to say "my g/box is wonderful". As an owner of an E36 EVO as well, i am well aware of over hyped issues such as "internet forum induced Vanos paranoia"!

I would be much happier if g/box oil changes were built into the service schedule - but the fact is that they are not - there in lies the root of the problem. preventative medicine, i agree with you, is so much better than trying to fix a problem once it starts and my words of caution are that these g/boxes are an expensive weak spot.

You cant change the oil properly on one of the g/boxes either. Some always remains in the torque converter - usually sludge - and that then gets washed round with the new oil, sometimes getting wedged in the intricate pipework. The only way to change all the oil properly is pumping it though whilst the engine is running - a much more complicated process - something your average "mr clutch" or "autobox" specialist isnt going to do...hence some failures occur after a basic g/box oil change!

I had a read of the other thread that you refer to a couple of posts after your ealier one and while it states about ZF advising of oil changes it doesnt really back up an argument because as moany people have hopped on and said "yes my g/box is/has failed too!" as those who have said they are doing preventative medicine!

In summary, i hope that someone reading both your and my posts takes a measured view and makes their own informed decision - there's lots of info out there - we are never going to agree. (and i'm certainly never going to by an auto e46 again!).

The e38 is still a great car - i loved mine - it had 200k on the clock - and had an oil g/box change at 140k and still ran like clockwork, so i certainly dont have a myopic view on this topic that oil changes always foul up the gearbox later on - i'm well prepared to agree that preventative changes can help but like i said - they are not recommended - surely that's a fault and make this area a weak spot.

Hope this helps.........


joebongo

1,516 posts

174 months

Friday 5th August 2011
quotequote all
I did a fluid change, seals, filters and software upgrade for my autobox on a '99 740 17k ago and it's fine. SOme you win some you lose. Mine was at 103k when I did it. 100k seems to be the cut off point between going for the change and keeping the old.

And the "lifetime" concept is somewhere loosely around 100k, not the total lifetime you can keep the car going.

VictorMeldrew

8,293 posts

276 months

Friday 5th August 2011
quotequote all
I did a fair bit of research on the gearbox issue a few years ago when the box on my 2.8 Audi A8 failed into limp mode at 120,000 miles. A ZF specialist charged £400 just to tell me it was broken and they couldn't fix it.

There was lots of debate about sealed for life then, but it boiled down to "life" = approx 100,000 miles. Yes, you can flush and refill, but if left to 100,000 before you do it the chances are that debris will be dislodged and actually cause the failure you were trying to prevent. Between a rock and a hard place then.

My view at the time was that the best course was preventative flush and refill every couple of years/30,000 miles. That way there is less opportunity for cr*p to build up and the box should last a few hundred thousand.


bga

8,134 posts

250 months

Friday 5th August 2011
quotequote all
poshgit said:
. Expert opinion (from the forums and the 11 - yes 11(!) independent auto gbox specialists that I consulted before getting the gbox rebuilt) indicates that the sealed for life gbox oil shouldn't be changed
To offer an alternative opinion the 3 (yes, 3!) autobox specialist I consulted strongly recommended changIng the gearbox oil at 80k ish miles. The company who rebuilt the box in my 540 reckoned a change every 80k miles would easily see 200k out of a box before it needed major work.

dafeller

598 posts

189 months

Saturday 16th February 2013
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AL V8 said:
It's a 95 litre tank so yes, it's been a while since I've filled it to the brim. I've had my 2001 740 sport for 3 years now and love it every bit as much as when I first bought it. Plenty of comfort & power, one of the last truly good looking BMWs made.

I rarely get to drive it these days as I have a company car (diesel X1 of all things) forced upon me, already been told off for using the e38 for work... Considering the road tax for it here in Ireland is €1600 per year and I'm paying twice that in company car tax I should really sell it, but the thought of that breaks my heart. Here it is:


you really should sell it. To me.

theironduke

6,995 posts

187 months

Saturday 16th February 2013
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Leptons said:
Laird said:
They're the wrong wheels (from an E36 by the looks of it).
I'm not convinced, I've never seen those on a 3 er. I think people forget hows small wheels used to be, 15inch used to be the norm!

How reliable are the BMW V8's? Awsome shed IMO!
15"?

My 1985 500 SE Mercedes (the flagship of the day) has it's original and standard fit wheels which are....14"!! yep, fourteen inch on a 5 litre barge! Wasn't all about the bling back then I guess.