RE: PH Buying Guide: Noble M12
Discussion
I've been interested in these since have a poke around 4 new un-registered cars that where sitting outside Noble's in Chesterfield (the 'other' Noble - the dude who does the engines), I assume waiting for the mapping to be done.
I know these cars have great tuning potential, but what's required to get 600+bhp out of one -
'just' new turbo's, or does the engine need some serious work to support that, or different engine altogether ?
I know these cars have great tuning potential, but what's required to get 600+bhp out of one -
'just' new turbo's, or does the engine need some serious work to support that, or different engine altogether ?
sjc said:
B.J.W said:
Came soooooooooo close to buying one earlier this year. Went for the Tuscan instead as I fancied an open top for the summer. Can see me taking another look in 6 months or so, particularly as the prices of the best ones seem to be firming up. The only thing that puts me off is their relative fragility (yes, even compared to a TVR). GTO 3R for me, the M400 is simply bonkers.
Having had 4 TVRS, and 2 Nobles I can safely say that a TVR is nowhere near as reliable as a Noble, in fact the comparision is laughable.
snowmuncher said:
I know these cars have great tuning potential, but what's required to get 600+bhp out of one -
'just' new turbo's, or does the engine need some serious work to support that, or different engine altogether ?
It's effectively a new engine - as you'll need new turbos, cams, intercooler, gearbox, exhaust etc. It's an expensive undertaking but a few have been done, so there's plenty of advice available on the Noble forum if you decide to go that route. 'just' new turbo's, or does the engine need some serious work to support that, or different engine altogether ?
Liontail said:
Hmm, if you mean mine, it's not "bxxxxx" as you put it, it's my opinion on these cars. No turbocharged engine, especially a Mondeo V6, is going to be as good to command as a BMW naturally aspirated six
Please explain why, and give a brief explanation of your experience regarding your comments concerning turbocharged engines. oh and as you are such an expert why do you call the engine a Mondeo V6? If I were you I would do your homework before you answer the last question. 
I think the E46 engine would be really out of character for a Noble.
My previous car was a 2004 M3 E46
My car before that was a 2004 Noble M12 GTO-3R
Let's clear a few things up.
1. The Noble doesn't use a Mondeo engine.
2. The Noble engine (352bhp) isn't laggy. I've owned 6 turbo cars (daily drive is an Alfa GT 1.9 JTD). The Noble is the least laggy of them all. Pulls from 1500 rpm. The E46 engine (338bhp) couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding at those revs.
3. The Noble engine (350 ft-lb) is so so much more torquey than the E46 engine.
Now, I'm not suggesting that the E46 engine wouldn't be good in such a light car, far from it, it would be very entertaining. I just suspect that those that talk about lag blah blah... have never driven a Noble.
My previous car was a 2004 M3 E46
My car before that was a 2004 Noble M12 GTO-3R
Let's clear a few things up.
1. The Noble doesn't use a Mondeo engine.
2. The Noble engine (352bhp) isn't laggy. I've owned 6 turbo cars (daily drive is an Alfa GT 1.9 JTD). The Noble is the least laggy of them all. Pulls from 1500 rpm. The E46 engine (338bhp) couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding at those revs.
3. The Noble engine (350 ft-lb) is so so much more torquey than the E46 engine.
Now, I'm not suggesting that the E46 engine wouldn't be good in such a light car, far from it, it would be very entertaining. I just suspect that those that talk about lag blah blah... have never driven a Noble.
I jumped from an S54 engined Z4MC to a Noble 3R.
The low down torque of the Noble (with eagerness to rev to the redline) is 1000x more fun than the raspy 'have to ring the neck off it' charactor of the the S54.
As Adrian states, I suggest some of the people look at who developed the Duratec V6 before Noble modified it furthur for turbocharging. Engineering input from Porsche before Ford and Cosworth developed the cylinder heads. We all know Cosworth and Porshe build rubbish engines dont we.
Oh and it was good enough for Jag and Mazda as a base as well.
The low down torque of the Noble (with eagerness to rev to the redline) is 1000x more fun than the raspy 'have to ring the neck off it' charactor of the the S54.
As Adrian states, I suggest some of the people look at who developed the Duratec V6 before Noble modified it furthur for turbocharging. Engineering input from Porsche before Ford and Cosworth developed the cylinder heads. We all know Cosworth and Porshe build rubbish engines dont we.
Oh and it was good enough for Jag and Mazda as a base as well.
Adrian W said:
Liontail said:
Hmm, if you mean mine, it's not "bxxxxx" as you put it, it's my opinion on these cars. No turbocharged engine, especially a Mondeo V6, is going to be as good to command as a BMW naturally aspirated six
Please explain why, and give a brief explanation of your experience regarding your comments concerning turbocharged engines. oh and as you are such an expert why do you call the engine a Mondeo V6? If I were you I would do your homework before you answer the last question. swankBaton said:
I jumped from an S54 engined Z4MC to a Noble 3R.
The low down torque of the Noble (with eagerness to rev to the redline) is 1000x more fun than the raspy 'have to ring the neck off it' charactor of the the S54.
A 1000 times better than one of the all time great engines? The low down torque of the Noble (with eagerness to rev to the redline) is 1000x more fun than the raspy 'have to ring the neck off it' charactor of the the S54.
The basis of the engine in the CSL?
One of the all time great drivers cars?
Really?
Liontail said:
Nagra said:
The things that put me off these is the lack of luggage space and the interior.....could not spend long looking at that dash!
The things that put me off these is the turbos on the engine? Why not put in a really good naturally aspirated six like the one out the E46 M3?
Liontail said:
A 1000 times better than one of the all time great engines?
The basis of the engine in the CSL?
One of the all time great drivers cars?
Really?
I said 1000x times more fun, thats my opinion of course The basis of the engine in the CSL?
One of the all time great drivers cars?
Really?
And of course the Z4MC is not a CSL, maybe a half-way house between the M3 and CSL but I must admit I prefered my mates CSL to my Z4M
any of these people debating the noise of a e46 m3 engine and a m12 engined car ever heard one? the noble sounds like a race car. the e46 is a lush sounding motor but put in the noble it would be a dissapointment. also who do you think gets let out of every single junction come rain or shine? show me a modernish) bmw that would get that treatment!
slipstream 1985 said:
any of these people debating the noise of a e46 m3 engine and a m12 engined car ever heard one? the noble sounds like a race car. the e46 is a lush sounding motor but put in the noble it would be a dissapointment. also who do you think gets let out of every single junction come rain or shine? show me a modernish) bmw that would get that treatment!
+1 Not too mention the 'after you sir' whilst in the fast lane.
Perks of the Nobility.
Adrian W said:
Why didn't PH get someone who actually knows about Nobles and the Noble ownership experience to write the article? That article was a complete waste of time.
got to agree with Adrian on this very poor artical !! and as for using a bmw 3.2 M unit .....come on be sensible !! there are Nobles running in excess of 600bhp and 540lbft of torque how the hell are you going to get that sort of power out of the M unit ?
TuxMan said:
Adrian W said:
Why didn't PH get someone who actually knows about Nobles and the Noble ownership experience to write the article? That article was a complete waste of time.
got to agree with Adrian on this very poor artical !! and as for using a bmw 3.2 M unit .....come on be sensible !! there are Nobles running in excess of 600bhp and 540lbft of torque how the hell are you going to get that sort of power out of the M unit ?
No matter how good it is, an inline 6 will be loooooong. the V6 is more compact, so I assume better suited to a mid engined car, never mind the fact it puts out morepower and torque.
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