RE: Bentley SUV To Inherit 'Lightweight' Platform
Discussion
RichB said:
I feel you are being a little insulting by suggesting that anyone who dislikes humongous 4x4s is being "small minded".
I didn't mean to imply that *anyone* who dislikes them is small-minded, only those who brand ALL 4x4s with the "yummy mummy school run in Hammersmith" or "blinged up gangsta rapper" sobriquet.However, an S-class Mercedes is very nearly as long and very nearly as heavy as a Q7, yet those don't attract the same attention. Is it just because the eco-mentalists have been effective with their brainwashing? As you say, ALL vehicles are getting bigger. While it's possible that some people buy a Q7 or XC90 just for themselves or a single child, I suspect that most people bought one through some sort of necessity. In my case, it's either occupying a single bay with one large car, or two bays with two medium sized cars.
PhilboSE said:
Almost the same situation I was in - needs dictate a large car, don't want to compromise on interior quality, not much on the market that steps up. A number of people I spoke to were in the same boat - definitely a segment that current the Q7 fills very well. No surprise to me that the Q7 has significantly outsold Audi's expectations.
I agree about the sliding doors and yes they would be preferred on grounds of practicality. However, even though the Q7 doors *are* big (there's no getting away from it) it hasn't proved to be that much of an issue for us. We live in an old market town and the bays and car parks are not big, but once you've recalibrated for the size of the car, it hasn't really been a problem, even for Mrs PhilboSE.
As for the image, you can see that the Q7 attracts some negativity. However, if these detractors realised that we don't go out there thinking "hey, I really wanted a 2-seater petrol engined high revving sports car but in the end I got this Q7", then they might be a little less small-minded. If you have 3 very young children, there are very very few cars where you can get all 3 in the back seat once child seats are in place. Equally, try convincing 3 teenagers to share a rear bench for 350 miles (a journey we do about 20 times a year), especially if the two outer seats are "bucket" stylee and the middle child gets a raw deal (and no headrest DVD in front of them!), and you'll have 3 teenagers even more stroppy than usual. Try either scenario for a year and trust me, you'll decide that you'll *need* a third row of seats. Some people just don't consider that you might have 4 children, or even older dependent parents you need to cart around en famille. Or, say, share a school run - our Q7 often runs 7-up with other children.
Which leaves MPVs and SUVs as your 7-seater options. None of the MPVs have the engine option that you (and I) prefer, and none have the same quality interior we'd like. Which leaves SUVs, and then you have the XC90 and the Q7. I discount the BMW X5 as the rear wheel arch intrudes so much it's impossible to access the third row of seats through the rear doors. The XC90 is getting long in the tooth now, but for me the primary reason for rejecting it was the DC5 engine - just not enough grunt and the brakes didn't inspire confidence to haul down a 2.5tonne vehicle.
I arrived at the Q7 through a process of elimination and regarded it as an inevitable consequence that had to be tolerated. Much to my surprise, it's won me over with the efficiency it's done it's job over the past 3 years.
I know that large 4x4s are not exactly favoured of the ecomentalists, but as I will happily point out, the CO2/head when we run the Q7 with 6+ occupants (which is pretty much how it gets run) favours well compared with a single occupant Focus. Or even an MX5. As for image, I don't care what other people think, because I've made a rational choice based on need and what I can personally afford. If they're offended, well then, be offended - no-one gets hurt! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
Finally, cost. I completely, wholeheartedly, 100% agree with your £33K 2nd hand option. That's exactly what I did - 6 month old 5000 miler ex-demo, bought during the 2008 recession when fuel prices were high and no-one wanted them. The Audi dealer practically begged me to take it off his hands - £60K worth of car new (the V8 option alone adds £10K to the list price - and you get nary a single extra option for that).
Yes the car costs £460 a year in road tax and a fillup costs £130 (though I get a 500+ mile range out of that), but I can live with those costs and the REAL cost of the car in depreciation makes much more sense financially than buying an MPV new.
Good luck with your test drive and whatever your choice turns out to be.
Phil - thanks for all this advice. I'm not convinced, but I'm going to test drive one this week and see what I think. Either way, VAG is getting my money. (Q7 or Sharan.) I agree about the sliding doors and yes they would be preferred on grounds of practicality. However, even though the Q7 doors *are* big (there's no getting away from it) it hasn't proved to be that much of an issue for us. We live in an old market town and the bays and car parks are not big, but once you've recalibrated for the size of the car, it hasn't really been a problem, even for Mrs PhilboSE.
As for the image, you can see that the Q7 attracts some negativity. However, if these detractors realised that we don't go out there thinking "hey, I really wanted a 2-seater petrol engined high revving sports car but in the end I got this Q7", then they might be a little less small-minded. If you have 3 very young children, there are very very few cars where you can get all 3 in the back seat once child seats are in place. Equally, try convincing 3 teenagers to share a rear bench for 350 miles (a journey we do about 20 times a year), especially if the two outer seats are "bucket" stylee and the middle child gets a raw deal (and no headrest DVD in front of them!), and you'll have 3 teenagers even more stroppy than usual. Try either scenario for a year and trust me, you'll decide that you'll *need* a third row of seats. Some people just don't consider that you might have 4 children, or even older dependent parents you need to cart around en famille. Or, say, share a school run - our Q7 often runs 7-up with other children.
Which leaves MPVs and SUVs as your 7-seater options. None of the MPVs have the engine option that you (and I) prefer, and none have the same quality interior we'd like. Which leaves SUVs, and then you have the XC90 and the Q7. I discount the BMW X5 as the rear wheel arch intrudes so much it's impossible to access the third row of seats through the rear doors. The XC90 is getting long in the tooth now, but for me the primary reason for rejecting it was the DC5 engine - just not enough grunt and the brakes didn't inspire confidence to haul down a 2.5tonne vehicle.
I arrived at the Q7 through a process of elimination and regarded it as an inevitable consequence that had to be tolerated. Much to my surprise, it's won me over with the efficiency it's done it's job over the past 3 years.
I know that large 4x4s are not exactly favoured of the ecomentalists, but as I will happily point out, the CO2/head when we run the Q7 with 6+ occupants (which is pretty much how it gets run) favours well compared with a single occupant Focus. Or even an MX5. As for image, I don't care what other people think, because I've made a rational choice based on need and what I can personally afford. If they're offended, well then, be offended - no-one gets hurt! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
Finally, cost. I completely, wholeheartedly, 100% agree with your £33K 2nd hand option. That's exactly what I did - 6 month old 5000 miler ex-demo, bought during the 2008 recession when fuel prices were high and no-one wanted them. The Audi dealer practically begged me to take it off his hands - £60K worth of car new (the V8 option alone adds £10K to the list price - and you get nary a single extra option for that).
Yes the car costs £460 a year in road tax and a fillup costs £130 (though I get a 500+ mile range out of that), but I can live with those costs and the REAL cost of the car in depreciation makes much more sense financially than buying an MPV new.
Good luck with your test drive and whatever your choice turns out to be.
PhilboSE said:
edb49 said:
Phil, must say your posts have intrigued me. I have got a family increasing in size, and what I really want is a Ford Galaxy with sliding rear doors and a BMW 3 litre twin turbo diesel in it.
There is not a great deal of choice if you want to have a premium car and you've got 4 kids. I actually placed an order for a VW Sharan a few weeks ago, but because of the Japanese earthquake you can't get the reversing camera, which I need if my wife isn't going to lose her NCB. So I pulled the order for the moment rather than have one in for the 9 months they were estimating.
The big disadvantages I see on the Q7s/Volvo XC90 etc are:
- Image. I love the fact my debadged 335d doesn't shout the wrong things. Great for 2 kids, but beyond that...
- No sliding doors. Useful for getting kids in and out in tight spaces.
But I'm looking at this with fresh eyes after reading your post. What can't be ignored is instead of putting down £33k on a Sharan (with options and discount), I could get a pretty good Q7 for the same money 2nd hand, and it would probably hold value better, and be a nicer place to be. Just not *quite* as practical. I'm going to test drive one.
Almost the same situation I was in - needs dictate a large car, don't want to compromise on interior quality, not much on the market that steps up. A number of people I spoke to were in the same boat - definitely a segment that current the Q7 fills very well. No surprise to me that the Q7 has significantly outsold Audi's expectations.There is not a great deal of choice if you want to have a premium car and you've got 4 kids. I actually placed an order for a VW Sharan a few weeks ago, but because of the Japanese earthquake you can't get the reversing camera, which I need if my wife isn't going to lose her NCB.
So I pulled the order for the moment rather than have one in for the 9 months they were estimating.The big disadvantages I see on the Q7s/Volvo XC90 etc are:
- Image. I love the fact my debadged 335d doesn't shout the wrong things. Great for 2 kids, but beyond that...
- No sliding doors. Useful for getting kids in and out in tight spaces.
But I'm looking at this with fresh eyes after reading your post. What can't be ignored is instead of putting down £33k on a Sharan (with options and discount), I could get a pretty good Q7 for the same money 2nd hand, and it would probably hold value better, and be a nicer place to be. Just not *quite* as practical. I'm going to test drive one.
I agree about the sliding doors and yes they would be preferred on grounds of practicality. However, even though the Q7 doors *are* big (there's no getting away from it) it hasn't proved to be that much of an issue for us. We live in an old market town and the bays and car parks are not big, but once you've recalibrated for the size of the car, it hasn't really been a problem, even for Mrs PhilboSE.
As for the image, you can see that the Q7 attracts some negativity. However, if these detractors realised that we don't go out there thinking "hey, I really wanted a 2-seater petrol engined high revving sports car but in the end I got this Q7", then they might be a little less small-minded. If you have 3 very young children, there are very very few cars where you can get all 3 in the back seat once child seats are in place. Equally, try convincing 3 teenagers to share a rear bench for 350 miles (a journey we do about 20 times a year), especially if the two outer seats are "bucket" stylee and the middle child gets a raw deal (and no headrest DVD in front of them!), and you'll have 3 teenagers even more stroppy than usual. Try either scenario for a year and trust me, you'll decide that you'll *need* a third row of seats. Some people just don't consider that you might have 4 children, or even older dependent parents you need to cart around en famille. Or, say, share a school run - our Q7 often runs 7-up with other children.
Which leaves MPVs and SUVs as your 7-seater options. None of the MPVs have the engine option that you (and I) prefer, and none have the same quality interior we'd like. Which leaves SUVs, and then you have the XC90 and the Q7. I discount the BMW X5 as the rear wheel arch intrudes so much it's impossible to access the third row of seats through the rear doors. The XC90 is getting long in the tooth now, but for me the primary reason for rejecting it was the DC5 engine - just not enough grunt and the brakes didn't inspire confidence to haul down a 2.5tonne vehicle.
I arrived at the Q7 through a process of elimination and regarded it as an inevitable consequence that had to be tolerated. Much to my surprise, it's won me over with the efficiency it's done it's job over the past 3 years.
I know that large 4x4s are not exactly favoured of the ecomentalists, but as I will happily point out, the CO2/head when we run the Q7 with 6+ occupants (which is pretty much how it gets run) favours well compared with a single occupant Focus. Or even an MX5. As for image, I don't care what other people think, because I've made a rational choice based on need and what I can personally afford. If they're offended, well then, be offended - no-one gets hurt! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
Finally, cost. I completely, wholeheartedly, 100% agree with your £33K 2nd hand option. That's exactly what I did - 6 month old 5000 miler ex-demo, bought during the 2008 recession when fuel prices were high and no-one wanted them. The Audi dealer practically begged me to take it off his hands - £60K worth of car new (the V8 option alone adds £10K to the list price - and you get nary a single extra option for that).
Yes the car costs £460 a year in road tax and a fillup costs £130 (though I get a 500+ mile range out of that), but I can live with those costs and the REAL cost of the car in depreciation makes much more sense financially than buying an MPV new.
Good luck with your test drive and whatever your choice turns out to be.
PhilboSE said:
RichB said:
I feel you are being a little insulting by suggesting that anyone who dislikes humongous 4x4s is being "small minded".
I didn't mean to imply that *anyone* who dislikes them is small-minded, only those who brand ALL 4x4s with the "yummy mummy school run in Hammersmith" or "blinged up gangsta rapper" sobriquet.However, an S-class Mercedes is very nearly as long and very nearly as heavy as a Q7, yet those don't attract the same attention. Is it just because the eco-mentalists have been effective with their brainwashing? As you say, ALL vehicles are getting bigger. While it's possible that some people buy a Q7 or XC90 just for themselves or a single child, I suspect that most people bought one through some sort of necessity. In my case, it's either occupying a single bay with one large car, or two bays with two medium sized cars.
PhilboSE said:
gumsie said:
Face it, you love gas guzzling overblown SUVs. A lighter, (than that ludicrous 2270Kg kerb weight for the cheap variant), cheaper less flashy MPV will do the same job regarding children.
As for diesels. If you think that that you can apply the word luxury to one then you are hard of hearing or in denial or both. If you want luxury you get a smooth quiet multi cylinder petrol, (in addition to the leather seats and niceties). NOT a deezl. Lets be real, the only reason diesels work is due to the turbo charging. That's why they work in a large car but so would a turbo petrol.
I had a large modern car dufus and a 2011 diesel. N, V and H are all still living large, except todays engines are nvh as opposed to NVH.
As for before SUVs like the Q7, the Espace came out in 1984. The current one at least, scored quite well for occupant protection, (even better than the Q7 I think).
I looked at MPVs but let's consider your Renault Espace example. It doesn't have a premium interior, it depreciates like a stone and it is one of the most unreliable cars according to all the surveys. The top engines, either a V6 petrol or V6 diesel, drink more fuel than my Q7 does; smaller engines e.g. 2.5l diesel has well documented design flaws and the "best" engines (2l 4-pot) simply don't have enough grunt to haul an Espace around fully laden in a manner that I feel comfortable with.As for diesels. If you think that that you can apply the word luxury to one then you are hard of hearing or in denial or both. If you want luxury you get a smooth quiet multi cylinder petrol, (in addition to the leather seats and niceties). NOT a deezl. Lets be real, the only reason diesels work is due to the turbo charging. That's why they work in a large car but so would a turbo petrol.
I had a large modern car dufus and a 2011 diesel. N, V and H are all still living large, except todays engines are nvh as opposed to NVH.
As for before SUVs like the Q7, the Espace came out in 1984. The current one at least, scored quite well for occupant protection, (even better than the Q7 I think).
Edited by gumsie on Sunday 14th August 13:17
Then let's take your point about turbo charged petrol. Let's take a look at big heavy cars with forced induction engines - say a Range Rover supercharged or a Bentley. Now take a look at the mpg figures for those cars. Now what exactly was your point again about gas guzzling?
Then you make the point about SUV vs MPV. Well, I live in a semi-rural area and when the snow falls the extra 4WD traction is a benefit. It also helps when I'm towing a heavy load (another car on a trailer) which I do, and the Espace doesn't have the towing credentials of the Q7.
As for diesels, mine makes quite a nice V8 roar when I put my foot down. It's not a classic induction noise but it's not unpleasant. And at idling and low speeds it's practically silent. Then you make some silly statement about "the only reason diesels work is because they're turbocharged". Well, who cares? They work. They give more flexible power delivery and better mpg in a large car. Trust me, my Q7 is not going to hold you up.
I'm not saying diesels are the second coming. I'm saying they are an appropriate engine choice on a larger car. I have a number of other cars and they're all petrol but they serve different purposes. And anyone who mixes "gas guzzling" and "turbo charged petrol" into the same argument about large cars is obviously ignorant or a bigot.
The point about the original article was that the next generation VAG/Bentley large MPV platform is going to get lighter than the current one, and that seems to me to be a Good Thing. Having the choice of a truly luxuriously fitted interior in this car segment is also a good thing to my mind - gives more choice to those who can afford it.
So it seems that your points are all easily deconstructed, your lack of consistency is easily demonstrated, and your deliberate spelling mistakes ("deezl", FFS) just makes you look immature.
Virtually silent at idle. Really? I mean reeeaally? What an unholy clatter. Hitler could have used diesel acoustics to great effect.
Turbo charged petrol = gas guzzling does it? I would politely refer you to your statement about ignorance and bigotry....and you tell me about a lack of consistency.
You pointed out how it was unsafe to have kids all over the back seat. I pointed you to a 5, yes five star NCAP rated car you ignored that point.
But at least you can admit, 'it's all about me'. That I will respect you for.
Picking up on deliberate spelling mistakes is quite immature too, shall I pick up on bad grammar and up the ante?
gumsie said:
I see the reference to, 'that I feel comfortable with' and , 'well who cares?' very important that. It's the universal way of saying - there, it's justified.
Virtually silent at idle. Really? I mean reeeaally? What an unholy clatter. Hitler could have used diesel acoustics to great effect.
Turbo charged petrol = gas guzzling does it? I would politely refer you to your statement about ignorance and bigotry....and you tell me about a lack of consistency.
You pointed out how it was unsafe to have kids all over the back seat. I pointed you to a 5, yes five star NCAP rated car you ignored that point.
But at least you can admit, 'it's all about me'. That I will respect you for.
Picking up on deliberate spelling mistakes is quite immature too, shall I pick up on bad grammar and up the ante?
You're really not doing your argument any favours here. You said "diesel engines only work because they're turbocharged". That's like saying "F1 engines only work because they rev to 16,000". They're both technical solutions that work. And I fail to understand how in your eyes a turbocharged petrol engine is "good" but turbocharged petrol is "bad".Virtually silent at idle. Really? I mean reeeaally? What an unholy clatter. Hitler could have used diesel acoustics to great effect.
Turbo charged petrol = gas guzzling does it? I would politely refer you to your statement about ignorance and bigotry....and you tell me about a lack of consistency.
You pointed out how it was unsafe to have kids all over the back seat. I pointed you to a 5, yes five star NCAP rated car you ignored that point.
But at least you can admit, 'it's all about me'. That I will respect you for.
Picking up on deliberate spelling mistakes is quite immature too, shall I pick up on bad grammar and up the ante?
I never said "turbo charged petrol = gas guzzling". I had to bring you back to the actual debate, but we're talking about big heavy cars here and you're then one asserting that a turbo charged petrol engine is the solution to a "gas guzzling 4x4 diesel". I just pointed out examples that support the fact that yours is a ridiculous position to take with respect to fuel consumption on these types of cars.
I thought I'd explained in probably overly long detail about why I chose not to go down the route of a Renault Espace...why don't you read my posts again. Go to your average paddock and see how many cars got trailed there behind an MPV. Then count again the number of 4x4s who did the same. See how many Espaces you see towing horse boxes around and about. See a trend there?
"It's all about me"...love the way you assert I've made particular statements...why don't you try to deconstruct my actual arguments using statements I've made? Although, as it happens, my car choice IS *my* car choice.
Go on then, have a go at my grammar. Knock yourself out. Deliberately mis-spelling "deezl" just puts you on the same level as the Apple Mac crowd who bandy around "Windoze". Fine if that floats your boat, but that kind of use of language usually marks you as an extremist.
As for the Hitler reference - you lose (Godwin's Law). And for further engagement on this topic with you from me, I'm with J4cko, and ahm oot.
Test drove a q7 4.2 tdi today. It was nice, but the third row seats were difficult to access and small. Fuel consumption on the test drive was early 20s too.
However, found something very interesting this afternoon. WWW.multimac.co.uk I am in love! Wouldn't suit all ages but perfect for my family in conjunction with E class or 5 series.
Complete result, really chuffed. :-)
However, found something very interesting this afternoon. WWW.multimac.co.uk I am in love! Wouldn't suit all ages but perfect for my family in conjunction with E class or 5 series.
Complete result, really chuffed. :-)
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