RE: New Defender Concept From Land Rover
Discussion
Wow you do insult a lot. Is it just because other people don't do what you want or how you live? 
Shame.
But the Defender is a specialist vehicle at the top of it's game when it comes to off road ability out of the box. It's as niche as a track day special or at least track focused sports cars.
Lets face it, every Ferrari 458 has a "track" mode and Ferrari went to great lengths to publicise it's track ablity. The reality is, a lot more 458's will never see a race track than ones that do.
A Defender follows the same ethos, just because you personally don't want to proper off road one, doesn't mean there aren't people that will. And just because you only use a fraction of the vehicles capability, it is not reason to then remove the remaining ability from the vehicle.
In the Jeep arena this is even bigger. And in other places like parts of the middle east and Oz.
The UK we may get less of this, but that's the UK. It still happens however. In fact I witnessed it first hand in and around USK castle only 2 and a bit weeks ago.
Shame.
Tuvra said:
1. I meant "normal" off road situations not climbing over ridiculous stones or going up crazy inclines. I would say 0.1% of 4x4's sold are required to carry out "extreme off roading" for purpose rather than pleasure. If you want to play about in the mud, buy an old classic and ruin them, that's what them guys do right? *cough* Range Rover Bobcat *cough*
In what markets. You again seem to be talking only about your use. I agree proper off roading is not for every vehicle. Hence why few vehicles, including other LR's are built for it these days.But the Defender is a specialist vehicle at the top of it's game when it comes to off road ability out of the box. It's as niche as a track day special or at least track focused sports cars.
Lets face it, every Ferrari 458 has a "track" mode and Ferrari went to great lengths to publicise it's track ablity. The reality is, a lot more 458's will never see a race track than ones that do.
A Defender follows the same ethos, just because you personally don't want to proper off road one, doesn't mean there aren't people that will. And just because you only use a fraction of the vehicles capability, it is not reason to then remove the remaining ability from the vehicle.
Tuvra said:
2. You will find plenty, mostly PR shots or people on driving days etc i.e. driving someone else's.
Really :rolleye: Are you truly so arrogant and naive to believe that? Maybe you should spend some time on some of the US forums where 'wheeling' is far more popular and in factory new standard vehicles. Hell most LR dealerships in the USA even have wheeling weekends in Moab or the mountains of some kind. Properly off roading the sales vehicles they want to make money on.In the Jeep arena this is even bigger. And in other places like parts of the middle east and Oz.
The UK we may get less of this, but that's the UK. It still happens however. In fact I witnessed it first hand in and around USK castle only 2 and a bit weeks ago.
Tuvra said:
3. Your uncle is like you then, a mong, why would you "waste" white diesel carrying out farm duties? Go on say it, he has to use a road to get to parts 
4. No, where I live and work represents a large proportion of normal people and their needs/desires, not internet mongs making up stupid scenarios so they can play silly buggers driving over stupid obstacles when in fact its easier to go round or in fact remove said obstacle.
I don't mean to abuse you but by f
k your annoying mate, you don't put valid points forward you just keep rabbiting until you think your right, this is the picture I have in my head of you stating the Defender is an acceptable "on roader" in 2013:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg
I thought you were annoying with your st "what car" suggestions but your fan boy, rose tinted glasses view of the Defender takes you to a whole new level 
What a rude person you are.4. No, where I live and work represents a large proportion of normal people and their needs/desires, not internet mongs making up stupid scenarios so they can play silly buggers driving over stupid obstacles when in fact its easier to go round or in fact remove said obstacle.
I don't mean to abuse you but by f
k your annoying mate, you don't put valid points forward you just keep rabbiting until you think your right, this is the picture I have in my head of you stating the Defender is an acceptable "on roader" in 2013:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg
I thought you were annoying with your s
t "what car" suggestions but your fan boy, rose tinted glasses view of the Defender takes you to a whole new level 300bhp/ton said:
What a rude person you are.
Half your argument is based on completely different markets? You are trying to sell these wonderful tractor-like defenders to a market that barely exists. Its like 5% of Caterham owners wanted to sacrifice 300kg in order to add a roof and door mechanism to the cars, would Caterham add roofs as standard to all the cars they produce due to demand by a tiny minority? No!
Let me ask you a question, have you ever bought a brand new, or even 3 year old Land Rover Defender in the 65 years they have been making them?
Tuvra said:
Half your argument is based on completely different markets?
Because any replacement Defender needs to be able to sell into other markets above and beyond the UK.Tuvra said:
You are trying to sell these wonderful tractor-like defenders to a market that barely exists. Its like 5% of Caterham owners wanted to sacrifice 300kg in order to add a roof and door mechanism to the cars, would Caterham add roofs as standard to all the cars they produce due to demand by a tiny minority? No!
Nope missing the point.Tuvra said:
Let me ask you a question, have you ever bought a brand new, or even 3 year old Land Rover Defender in the 65 years they have been making them?
Not yet, but then I'm not 65. A new Defender however I have been saving for, just waiting to see what they actually produce. If it's the right vehicle then it'll be the first new car I'll have bought. If it isn't, then it won't. In fact maybe a fact as simple as this - me a non new car buyer - would actually consider buying a new, but only a Defender says something about it's potential appeal and importance.Twincam16 said:
So, IMO it'd make sense to base a future Defender replacement on that. Maybe a crewcab pickup-style setup, aimed at the Mitsubishi L200, with the more easily broken extremities of the Discovery replaced with deformable bolt-on rubber, or nothing if they're not necessary.
I agree.. using the Discoveries chassis would be a good idea, however Land Rover are ditching the Disco's solid chassis for a monocoque spaceframe for it's next iteration leaving the Defender as the only car in the lineup with a solid frame.Some in this thread would say that this would be too expensive for land rover.
Not to mention the Disco chassis would need to be engineered to accept two solid live axles, unless they ported over the disco's very complex, very unreliable and very expensive air suspension setup.
Just out of interest, does anyone know if a Hilux-style pickup/crewcab, based on an Evoque/Freelander chassis and with the requisite ground clearance and off-road tyres, would be acceptably good enough off-road?
I don't mean 300bhp/ton-style driving-vertically-up-El-Capitan off-roading, I mean useful enough for Forestry Commission types and farmers to get to and from the far end of a very steep and muddy field in the rain carrying three sheep and the village idiot on the flatbed.
I don't mean 300bhp/ton-style driving-vertically-up-El-Capitan off-roading, I mean useful enough for Forestry Commission types and farmers to get to and from the far end of a very steep and muddy field in the rain carrying three sheep and the village idiot on the flatbed.
NomduJour said:
Unreliable? Only on the internet in my experience.
air suspension will always be more unreliable than coil sprung, even when the japs put them in their Lexus's, they still go bad.You have to content with air leaks, punctures, failing compressors, rusting/jamming valves and of course the large expense of replacing these parts when they go wrong.
Can't beat air for ride quality though.
Twincam16 said:
Just out of interest, does anyone know if a Hilux-style pickup/crewcab, based on an Evoque/Freelander chassis and with the requisite ground clearance and off-road tyres, would be acceptably good enough off-road?
I don't mean 300bhp/ton-style driving-vertically-up-El-Capitan off-roading, I mean useful enough for Forestry Commission types and farmers to get to and from the far end of a very steep and muddy field in the rain carrying three sheep and the village idiot on the flatbed.
IFS is good enough provided you do not need much in the way of axle articulation. Modern traction control systems also help with this.I don't mean 300bhp/ton-style driving-vertically-up-El-Capitan off-roading, I mean useful enough for Forestry Commission types and farmers to get to and from the far end of a very steep and muddy field in the rain carrying three sheep and the village idiot on the flatbed.
A live rear axle will always be preferred for heavy duty work though... and most pickups come with one as standard.
skyrover said:
You have to content with air leaks, punctures, failing compressors, rusting/jamming valves and of course the large expense of replacing these parts when they go wrong
Zero problems in the seven LR products so equipped I have had experience of.Twincam16 said:
Just out of interest, does anyone know if a Hilux-style pickup/crewcab, based on an Evoque/Freelander chassis and with the requisite ground clearance and off-road tyres, would be acceptably good enough off-road?
I don't mean 300bhp/ton-style driving-vertically-up-El-Capitan off-roading, I mean useful enough for Forestry Commission types and farmers to get to and from the far end of a very steep and muddy field in the rain carrying three sheep and the village idiot on the flatbed.
They don't have a huge amount of wheel travel or articulation (most pick ups aren't great in this respect either although they generally do have a solid rear axle), so you would be relying on traction control more often, but for most people it would be adequate. Still a compromise though and certainly not good enough for a Defender replacement.I don't mean 300bhp/ton-style driving-vertically-up-El-Capitan off-roading, I mean useful enough for Forestry Commission types and farmers to get to and from the far end of a very steep and muddy field in the rain carrying three sheep and the village idiot on the flatbed.
NomduJour said:
skyrover said:
You have to content with air leaks, punctures, failing compressors, rusting/jamming valves and of course the large expense of replacing these parts when they go wrong
Zero problems in the seven LR products so equipped I have had experience of.Personally I love air suspension, and seriously toyed with the idea of fitting some bags to my defender, purely for the ride and ability to adjust the back end when towing...
Lexus probably builds the most reliable system on the market, but it can and will fail... and then your paying out the big money.
This guy fitted his truck out because he can't walk and needed to lower the vehicle for access. He used a hand throttle to drive it.
interestingly this also exposes one of the qualities of the current defender.... it's ability to be modified to suit the individuals needs.
Edited by skyrover on Thursday 6th June 17:36
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