Ringing kits for sale on ebay...No not on our watch!

[Alxxx]

Looks stolen to me, other items for sale make me think they may indulge in some shoplifting too.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262636033182

[anonymous-user]

The log books are only like selling a rotted wreck but without the rotted wreck, no? Many use the wreck for a couple of parts and use it to build a new car so its not much different if its only the log book. As to using it to make a stolen car legit - extremely difficult to stop.

[Liquid Knight]

We can stop the illegal sale of log books and VIN plates. Sure we can't do much about people buying rusty shells and chassis but that's what the points system is for and they should be easy enough to spot further down the line.

I like these...

"What harm does it really do?"

...comments as I have a standardised answer.

Wait until it's your car that gets stolen and get back to us.

[InitialDave]

V6Pushfit said:

The log books are only like selling a rotted wreck but without the rotted wreck, no? Many use the wreck for a couple of parts and use it to build a new car so its not much different if its only the log book. As to using it to make a stolen car legit - extremely difficult to stop.

But that's just it. Without the rotted wreck. That's the difference. I'm ok with someone selling an utter stheap, even if it's now reducted to little more than a crusty partial shell, as there's a chance to restore it. But a registration document alone serves no legitimate purpose, all you could use it to do is to clone a stolen car or fake a classic for other reasons (making a SIII Land Rover go from tax-liable to tax-exempt, for example. Even if the tax examption keeps rolling and it'd be tax-free in five years anyway, someone's saved a grand).

I can maybe see there being an edge case of someone building, say, an MGB, using a heritage shell, and so they are to an extreme interpretation "restoring" the car from the paperwork, but that strikes me as being a very, very unlikely scenario.

No, you cannot stop people cloning stolen cars, but you can make it more difficult for them. Plus:

Liquid Knight said:

Wait until it's your car that gets stolen and get back to us.

There was a recent thread with someone's E-Type being stolen. A few hundred quid on a "legit" document and some plates, and suddenly it's ten times harder to find it and get it back to him.

Really, I don't have that much of a problem with people using a phantom car's identity to legitamise some Heinz 57 bitsa that they've built from parts that have been acquired honestly, but nor do I feel this kind of thing is a sufficiently "good" reason to make it easier for the criminal applications of the same technique.

[anonymous-user]

It's impossible to draw the line. One mans heritage shell is another mans log book clone. The latter end of the scale is the log book nicked e type but how to distinguish? You can't say original engine number, can't even say original data plate. As far as I can see as soon as it's illegal it will stop some of the more extensive rebuilds.
People will get round anything.

[InitialDave]

V6Pushfit said:

It's impossible to draw the line.

I've drawn it. Even minimal remains of a car is fine by me, but paperwork alone is dodgy.

[anonymous-user]

InitialDave said:

I've drawn it. Even minimal remains of a car is fine by me, but paperwork alone is dodgy.

Nail on head job. What's minimal - a wheel?
The only way would be for all log book sales to be inspected for the mortal remains. That's a delay and cost so it would just carry on. Plus of course defining what mortal remains are the threshold. It would make the illegal sales flourish people would start investing in V5's and not giving them over when a car is scrapped etc

[Cliftonite]

It would be helpful if eBay took their responsibilities seriously and actually stopped the sale of these documents.

If only there was a way to search the eBay database for auctions of a V5a logbook so they could be easily found and stopped.

Oh! . . . . There is!

[InitialDave]

V6Pushfit said:

Nail on head job. What's minimal - a wheel?
The only way would be for all log book sales to be inspected for the mortal remains. That's a delay and cost so it would just carry on. Plus of course defining what mortal remains are the threshold. It would make the illegal sales flourish people would start investing in V5's and not giving them over when a car is scrapped etc

It's generally taken that it has to be a chassis/bodyshell or part thereof to "count".

[anonymous-user]

InitialDave said:

It's generally taken that it has to be a chassis/bodyshell or part thereof to "count".

That's fine but then there's the old 'I'll leave the chassis thanks as it's so rotted I'll just take the log book and a door handle' so back to square one.

[Liquid Knight]

Cliftonite said:

It would be helpful if eBay took their responsibilities seriously and actually stopped the sale of these documents.

If only there was a way to search the eBay database for auctions of a V5a logbook so they could be easily found and stopped.

Oh! . . . . There is!

I have sent messages to eBay and posted on their Facebook wall suggesting that by allowing these sales on their site they are a third party and therefore accessories to the theft of the motor vehicle the ringing kit is used on.

Cut and shut, Heinz 57, triggers broom, bits and bobs vehicles that use an illegally obtained identity to avoid the IVA/SVA process or to age the vehicle making it MOT or tax exempt are worse than ringers. At least thieves aren't selling potentially lethal vehicles on to the more trusting public.

One car my local MOT guys had to test was so poorly welded together the suspension was ripped from the chassis frame (Se7en type) when they did the brake test. That was using a Westfield log book from the mid-80's and had been put together that weekend.

If you are doing a Heritage shell build you need the whole car otherwise it won't be the same car. New engine, new suspension, new brakes, new body, new interior, new bright work but it has a VIN plate from 1968 so it must be original. In my opinion Heritage shell cars should go through the same process as a new kit car and if it turns out the engine numbers don't match or any component parts aren't original replacement parts it should not have the original identity and be registered as a new vehicle VIN plate or not.

Like the Frontline MGB's new body, new parts, new registration. That's how they all should be.

[anonymous-user]

^ Thats understood but impossible to police. The only ID bits on a classic car are generally the engine number, chassis plate and log book (so therefore colour and maybe spec variant).
Engine number - not relevant as engine changed/number removed etc
Colour - can be changed by applying to DVLA
Variant - often difficult to spot and can be recreated anyway
Chassis plate - people just buy new ones and stamp them
Log book - ebay as before!

If the engine numbers were sacrosanct it would work. ie keep the engine number updated if changed and all classic car owners have to correctly register the numbers. Any missing numbers get restamped and recorded. So no V5 sales without a matching engine. This is a big operation but would knock it on the head (no pun intended) although still not infallible........

[Liquid Knight]

V6Pushfit said:

^ Thats understood but impossible to police.

This is why we are here to help and the whole point of the thread.

The V5C or logbook is the property of the DVLA (not the registered keeper) and has to be sent back to them when the vehicle is scrapped. Failure to do so is an offence under the road vehicle registration and licensing act.

The legal definition of theft however is the removal or obtaining of someone else's property without the intention of returning it. So technically selling a V5C or log book that belonged to a scrapped vehicle is theft. The sale is proof there was no intention of returning it to the DVLA and those who purchased it are therefore receiving stolen goods.

So it doesn't matter if the identity is used to ring a stolen vehicle, hide insurance history, number of owners, mileage, age or other fraudulent activity the seller is guilty of theft and the buyer receiving.


This is why whenever a ringing kit listing isn't removed in time and I can afford to I buy them and return them to their rightful owners the DVLA. As for the registered keeper or seller I leave that to the DVLA to deal with.

[anonymous-user]

Liquid Knight said:

This is why we are here to help and the whole point of the thread.

The V5C or logbook is the property of the DVLA (not the registered keeper) and has to be sent back to them when the vehicle is scrapped. Failure to do so is an offence under the road vehicle registration and licensing act.

The legal definition of theft however is the removal or obtaining of someone else's property without the intention of returning it. So technically selling a V5C or log book that belonged to a scrapped vehicle is theft. The sale is proof there was no intention of returning it to the DVLA and those who purchased it are therefore receiving stolen goods.

So it doesn't matter if the identity is used to ring a stolen vehicle, hide insurance history, number of owners, mileage, age or other fraudulent activity the seller is guilty of theft and the buyer receiving.


This is why whenever a ringing kit listing isn't removed in time and I can afford to I buy them and return them to their rightful owners the DVLA. As for the registered keeper or seller I leave that to the DVLA to deal with.

I see, but this hinges on the car having been scrapped in which case the V5 is redundant anyway. The V5's for sale are more likely from cars that are sorned but dont actually exist any more/have been dismantled years ago but DVLA arent aware.

So, you buy the V5's and return them to DVLA as a form of vigilante philanthropist act - very honourable, but Really?

[Liquid Knight]

Have you ever had your car stolen?

Trust me it's worth a few quid to stop it happening to someone else.

[anonymous-user]

Liquid Knight said:

Have you ever had your car stolen?

Trust me it's worth a few quid to stop it happening to someone else.

Absolutely - for me, but for you?

So you spend anything from £100 to £1000+ a time buying V5's of cars that haven't been registered as scrapped (as the ones that have are off the system) and them send them to DVLA to get them to record as no longer existing??

Apologies for asking but am I reading this correctly, is it your own money, and if both answers are yes are you actually investing in V5's or doing it as a mission?

Edited by V6Pushfit on Thursday 29th September 16:42

[Liquid Knight]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rover-P5b-V8-Log-Book-V5...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MINI-1980-V5-LOGB...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MINI-1963-V5-LOGB...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/mini-Italian-job-logbook...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MORRIS-MINOR-MM-V5C-LOG-...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Morris-V5c-MOT-Tax-exemp...

Just a few for today.

[Cliftonite]

Morris Minors are plentiful and easy to steal.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191983677077?ul_noapp=tr...

[Liquid Knight]

These "Memorabilia" listings are becoming troublesome.

As far as I am concerned there is no historic value to the old blue V5 or new V5C so they are all being sold with criminal intent.

[Cliftonite]

Land Rover 110 1984 V8 Logbook

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152262079847?ul_ref=http...

A357 YBO