Ringing kits for sale on ebay...No not on our watch!
Discussion
When the information is available in the eBay listing number plate, chassis number, make, model, colour, year of manufacture etc that is passed on to the National Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service...
https://navcis.police.uk/
...this information is passed on to the local Police and the number plates added to the ANPR network so if any vehicle wears that number plate in the future it will be flagged and stopped at the earliest safe opportunity.
I also have friends in the press both motoring (I used to write for various publications) and general but why advertise what we are doing and trying to achieve?
All this will do is make criminals aware of our efforts and drive them away from eBay and other sites where we (the members of the biggest motoring forum in the UK) can do something to stop them.
Thank you for the support Steffan we all appreciate it.
I also like a bit of a debate or even trolls as each post pushes the thread to the top of the General Gassing page, more people see it and more people get involved.
So back on topic.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MINI-1970-V5-LOGB...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MINI-1963-V5-LOGB...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-110-1984-V8-L...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CR250-Log-Book-V5/...
A couple of re-posts there but eBay haven't removed them and I can't afford them this week. :P
https://navcis.police.uk/
...this information is passed on to the local Police and the number plates added to the ANPR network so if any vehicle wears that number plate in the future it will be flagged and stopped at the earliest safe opportunity.
I also have friends in the press both motoring (I used to write for various publications) and general but why advertise what we are doing and trying to achieve?
All this will do is make criminals aware of our efforts and drive them away from eBay and other sites where we (the members of the biggest motoring forum in the UK) can do something to stop them.
Thank you for the support Steffan we all appreciate it.
I also like a bit of a debate or even trolls as each post pushes the thread to the top of the General Gassing page, more people see it and more people get involved.
So back on topic.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MINI-1970-V5-LOGB...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUSTIN-MINI-1963-V5-LOGB...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-110-1984-V8-L...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CR250-Log-Book-V5/...
A couple of re-posts there but eBay haven't removed them and I can't afford them this week. :P
Your reply LK answers the route of reporting although I should think it goes into thin air unless they can show otherwise. It's seems to me unlikely that much would happen anyway due to many purchasers buying to 'rebuild' a car upwards from the purchased V5 and bolt, and I'm not aware of any inspection force going around checking anyway.
On the face of it these efforts won't amount to what is intended without a nationwide SORN review or somesuch.
It is disappointing that you infer the queries are trolling. It's an easy label to apply to what are just straightforward questions which given 5 years of doing this I thought would be easily answered. Sometimes it takes a query from a relative outsider to open up new ideas.
So, what happens to the V5's you use your own money to buy, in order to destroy them? and if they go to DVLA are they receipted because as I said earlier if not this puts you in a difficult position IMHO
On the face of it these efforts won't amount to what is intended without a nationwide SORN review or somesuch.
It is disappointing that you infer the queries are trolling. It's an easy label to apply to what are just straightforward questions which given 5 years of doing this I thought would be easily answered. Sometimes it takes a query from a relative outsider to open up new ideas.
So, what happens to the V5's you use your own money to buy, in order to destroy them? and if they go to DVLA are they receipted because as I said earlier if not this puts you in a difficult position IMHO
V6Pushfit said:
It's seems to me unlikely that much would happen anyway due to many purchasers buying to 'rebuild' a car upwards from the purchased V5 and bolt,
The DVLA point scheme for radically altered vehicles. Another reason for reporting them to NaVCS it puts them on VOSA's radar as well. I also said "debate and even trolls" don't put yourself down.
V6Pushfit said:
A rebuilt or stolen/ re ID'd classic car isn't radically altered?
Technically it is because none of the original parts have been used and that's zero points. Heritage shell builds are the same. New shell or chassis, new suspension, engine, gearbox, interior, axles, wheels, brakes etc but an aluminium badge and piece of paper says it's original.
Most heritage builds are to a higher standard than what rolled out of the factory but doesn't change the fact it's a new vehicle and not a restored one so it should be treated the same as a new kit car build.
Liquid Knight said:
Technically it is because none of the original parts have been used and that's zero points.
Heritage shell builds are the same. New shell or chassis, new suspension, engine, gearbox, interior, axles, wheels, brakes etc but an aluminium badge and piece of paper says it's original.
Most heritage builds are to a higher standard than what rolled out of the factory but doesn't change the fact it's a new vehicle and not a restored one so it should be treated the same as a new kit car build.
You are taking a somewhat extreme view of this that I doubt is shared widely if at all - You try telling the MGB heritage owners they should be on a Q plate!Heritage shell builds are the same. New shell or chassis, new suspension, engine, gearbox, interior, axles, wheels, brakes etc but an aluminium badge and piece of paper says it's original.
Most heritage builds are to a higher standard than what rolled out of the factory but doesn't change the fact it's a new vehicle and not a restored one so it should be treated the same as a new kit car build.
A new chassis or bodyshell that is to the correct original specification is allowed with no risk to the original registration, if you have used 2 "major components" from the original. And those components can be ones that are not identified on the V5 or by age-related markings and the like, so you can't really tell whether they're original.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-ve...
MGB heritage reshells absolutely do not need to be on a Q plate, though you could argue that strictly speaking they should be inspected and evidence given to support the reshell having been a new one, not someone's stolen car.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-ve...
MGB heritage reshells absolutely do not need to be on a Q plate, though you could argue that strictly speaking they should be inspected and evidence given to support the reshell having been a new one, not someone's stolen car.
V6Pushfit said:
You are taking a somewhat extreme view of this that I doubt is shared widely if at all - You try telling the MGB heritage owners they should be on a Q plate!
He doesn't really understand the law at all. I am all for preventing piss-taking vendors selling V5s to dishonest buyers, but it makes me cringe. The made-up law and interpretations are comical. Its rather like 'policemans-law', but 2x as bad....and off topic we go again. 
A new build based around a Heritage shell with all new parts? Yes
In the interest of public safety however I fell both should go through the same Type Approval process. This may not be a view of many but it is shared with the DVLA.
2/ rebuilt a vehicle - classic restoration, road legal rally/race vehicles and so on.
3/ radically altered a vehicle - jacked up cut and shut off roaders fwd to rwd/4wd conversions and so on.
4/ reconstructed a classic vehicle - Heritage shell builds or any bare shell restoration and so on.
5/ imported a vehicle - goes without saying.
You simply can not say that having a heritage shell, pile of new parts and a VIN plate makes it an "original" build. It's a new build that has a ringing kit to avoid the Type Approval process. Knowing how much a decent heritage shell build costs paying for an IVA is a small price to add to the budget.
V6Pushfit said:
You are taking a somewhat extreme view of this that I doubt is shared widely if at all - You try telling the MGB heritage owners they should be on a Q plate!
A genuine Heritage build from a complete donor? No A new build based around a Heritage shell with all new parts? Yes
In the interest of public safety however I fell both should go through the same Type Approval process. This may not be a view of many but it is shared with the DVLA.
DVLA website said:
Vehicle Approval
1. Overview
The manufacturer or importer will usually take care of vehicle approval. You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:
1/ built a vehicle
2/ rebuilt a vehicle
3/ radically altered a vehicle
4/ reconstructed a classic vehicle
5/ imported a vehicle
1/ built a vehicle - kit cars and so on.1. Overview
The manufacturer or importer will usually take care of vehicle approval. You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:
1/ built a vehicle
2/ rebuilt a vehicle
3/ radically altered a vehicle
4/ reconstructed a classic vehicle
5/ imported a vehicle
2/ rebuilt a vehicle - classic restoration, road legal rally/race vehicles and so on.
3/ radically altered a vehicle - jacked up cut and shut off roaders fwd to rwd/4wd conversions and so on.
4/ reconstructed a classic vehicle - Heritage shell builds or any bare shell restoration and so on.
5/ imported a vehicle - goes without saying.
You simply can not say that having a heritage shell, pile of new parts and a VIN plate makes it an "original" build. It's a new build that has a ringing kit to avoid the Type Approval process. Knowing how much a decent heritage shell build costs paying for an IVA is a small price to add to the budget.
InitialDave said:
A new chassis or bodyshell that is to the correct original specification is allowed with no risk to the original registration, if you have used 2 "major components" from the original. And those components can be ones that are not identified on the V5 or by age-related markings and the like, so you can't really tell whether they're original.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-ve...
MGB heritage reshells absolutely do not need to be on a Q plate, though you could argue that strictly speaking they should be inspected and evidence given to support the reshell having been a new one, not someone's stolen car.
This seems very rational. The MGB lads that do the new MGB I believe offer age related numbers. A Suffolk Jaguar C Type or SS100 is usually a reg off a MK10, XJ6 or somesuch and just put on it with no cherished transfer. I don't have an issue with that at all. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-ve...
MGB heritage reshells absolutely do not need to be on a Q plate, though you could argue that strictly speaking they should be inspected and evidence given to support the reshell having been a new one, not someone's stolen car.
It's the ringing and crime side that's the issue and I don't think this witch hunt achieves that it's putting too many innocent people under the umbrella of 'accessories to a crime' including the sellers. As for the purchase of V5's to prevent it?? To 99% of these transactions it's money spent to achieve very little and as I have said becoming an 'accessory' to the alleged crime anyway.
Edit: This is in reply to LK, not V6, he posted while I was writing it.
No, a build from a new heritage shell with all new parts would get a new reg.
A build from a heritage shell with used parts of indeterminate origin would be a Q.
So unsurprisingly, when people do such a rebuild, they always magically know that their (completely unidentified and fungible) suspension, steering and drivetrain components came from the car whose registration they are claiming.
No, a build from a new heritage shell with all new parts would get a new reg.
A build from a heritage shell with used parts of indeterminate origin would be a Q.
So unsurprisingly, when people do such a rebuild, they always magically know that their (completely unidentified and fungible) suspension, steering and drivetrain components came from the car whose registration they are claiming.
Just to repeat myself from a few pages ago when I answered the same question and as Frontline have demonstrated. Here is a new build MGB Roadster based on a new shell with all new parts...
...on a "15" plate. The new owners can put a personalised or ageless plate on there but it will still be a 2015 built vehicle and registered as such.
The sale of ringing kits is not exclusively used to change the identity of stolen vehicles but can be used to avoid th costs of the Type Approval process. This is arguably worse because there could be a potential death trap on the road as a result.
Can we get back on topic now?
...on a "15" plate. The new owners can put a personalised or ageless plate on there but it will still be a 2015 built vehicle and registered as such.
The sale of ringing kits is not exclusively used to change the identity of stolen vehicles but can be used to avoid th costs of the Type Approval process. This is arguably worse because there could be a potential death trap on the road as a result.
Can we get back on topic now?
InitialDave said:
Edit: This is in reply to LK, not V6, he posted while I was writing it.
No, a build from a new heritage shell with all new parts would get a new reg.
A build from a heritage shell with used parts of indeterminate origin would be a Q.
So unsurprisingly, when people do such a rebuild, they always magically know that their (completely unidentified and fungible) suspension, steering and drivetrain components came from the car whose registration they are claiming.
Sorry Dave. On my soapbox again. No, a build from a new heritage shell with all new parts would get a new reg.
A build from a heritage shell with used parts of indeterminate origin would be a Q.
So unsurprisingly, when people do such a rebuild, they always magically know that their (completely unidentified and fungible) suspension, steering and drivetrain components came from the car whose registration they are claiming.
I agree with the idea of safety aspect on a basic level, but anything actively dangerous should be found by a regular MOT anyway, and I find the idea that strictly speaking a rebuild with nice new parts needs an inspection from a "safety" perspective when nailing together old/used parts doesn't to be slightly odd.
My overall opinion remains that I do want the use of phantom vehicle identities to ring/clone stolen cars to be stopped, but I regard someone using said identity to legitamise a new build or a Heinz 57 to be relatively harmless, and not in need of government interference. However the latter is the cost of doing something about the former. And it's not really necessary anyway.
For stuff over 25 years old, there is the avenue of a build up report which effectively means a pile of bits that are all period correct, made into a vehicle which is period correct and "representative of the marque", can receive an age-related number based on newest part used) rather than the usual Q reg.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/reconstruc...
That removes a huge chunk of the "not wanting a Q reg" impetus to these kinds of activities, and I believe a lot of the reason for people using an old V5 is that their vehicle wouldn't meet those critera due to modifications (a "series" Land Rover "coil conversion" that's actually just a cut-down Range Rover chassis, for example). If it's something that was done years ago, when it was possible to get away with that, but there's no way to prove it's been like that for 20 years because there's no paperwork, I have a certain amount of sympathy for people feeling they're "losing out" (on the identity, the tax exempt status, whatever), but broadly agree with how things are now.
My overall opinion remains that I do want the use of phantom vehicle identities to ring/clone stolen cars to be stopped, but I regard someone using said identity to legitamise a new build or a Heinz 57 to be relatively harmless, and not in need of government interference. However the latter is the cost of doing something about the former. And it's not really necessary anyway.
For stuff over 25 years old, there is the avenue of a build up report which effectively means a pile of bits that are all period correct, made into a vehicle which is period correct and "representative of the marque", can receive an age-related number based on newest part used) rather than the usual Q reg.
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/reconstruc...
That removes a huge chunk of the "not wanting a Q reg" impetus to these kinds of activities, and I believe a lot of the reason for people using an old V5 is that their vehicle wouldn't meet those critera due to modifications (a "series" Land Rover "coil conversion" that's actually just a cut-down Range Rover chassis, for example). If it's something that was done years ago, when it was possible to get away with that, but there's no way to prove it's been like that for 20 years because there's no paperwork, I have a certain amount of sympathy for people feeling they're "losing out" (on the identity, the tax exempt status, whatever), but broadly agree with how things are now.
This is a mess IMHO. The basic parameters are too vague and partly in the intentions of the buyer and seller which in the former case may change during a rebuild. As a result the idea of buying V5'5 to effectively help the DVLA do their job seems extremely odd to me and there are other words that can be substituted for extremely odd depending on viewpoint.
The ONLY way to get this regularised is for either the DVLA to review SORN's or to do a database of V5's for sale - or indeed both.
Alerting people to the sale will do nothing - it may be a long time before they are used and most buyers wouldnt give a toss anyway if they buy a Lotus Cortina that has and MOT gap between 1982 and 2015 as there are many legitimate reasons for that.
I cannot see this getting anywhere apart form another 5 years of skimming the surface and assuming everyone is a crook. Surface skimming is better than doing nothing but in 5 years has a sale resulted in an identified ringer at a later date that has been reported and nabbed?
To round off using the drugs analogy - flagging up the low life street corner 'one sale' dealers and where they don't stop the sale then buying the drugs from them in a world where their criminal intentions aren't assured anyway is not going to be a War On Drugs.
The ONLY way to get this regularised is for either the DVLA to review SORN's or to do a database of V5's for sale - or indeed both.
Alerting people to the sale will do nothing - it may be a long time before they are used and most buyers wouldnt give a toss anyway if they buy a Lotus Cortina that has and MOT gap between 1982 and 2015 as there are many legitimate reasons for that.
I cannot see this getting anywhere apart form another 5 years of skimming the surface and assuming everyone is a crook. Surface skimming is better than doing nothing but in 5 years has a sale resulted in an identified ringer at a later date that has been reported and nabbed?
To round off using the drugs analogy - flagging up the low life street corner 'one sale' dealers and where they don't stop the sale then buying the drugs from them in a world where their criminal intentions aren't assured anyway is not going to be a War On Drugs.
I have never understood why people do that Dave. Why cut and shut a Range Rover so anyone who has ever seen a Land Rover before can tell it's nothing like the original chassis when going from leaf to coil springs is very straight forward?
You can even use the old leaf spring hangers to mount a four link set up for better articulation. If off roading is the goal limiting yourself to old Range Rover parts, travel and clearance is a massive compromise.
Obviously cost is key here and I'm sure a cut and shut without Type Approval is cheaper but personally if I were into that sort of thing I would spend a little more and do a better job of it.
I might build something one day but there isn't really anything in Norfolk that a standard Panda 4x4 can't handle.
You can even use the old leaf spring hangers to mount a four link set up for better articulation. If off roading is the goal limiting yourself to old Range Rover parts, travel and clearance is a massive compromise.
Obviously cost is key here and I'm sure a cut and shut without Type Approval is cheaper but personally if I were into that sort of thing I would spend a little more and do a better job of it.
I might build something one day but there isn't really anything in Norfolk that a standard Panda 4x4 can't handle.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Saturday 8th October 13:47
V6Pushfit said:
This is a mess IMHO. The basic parameters are too vague and partly in the intentions of the buyer and seller which in the former case may change during a rebuild. As a result the idea of buying V5'5 to effectively help the DVLA do their job seems extremely odd to me and there are other words that can be substituted for extremely odd depending on viewpoint.
The ONLY way to get this regularised is for either the DVLA to review SORN's or to do a database of V5's for sale - or indeed both.
Alerting people to the sale will do nothing - it may be a long time before they are used and most buyers wouldnt give a toss anyway if they buy a Lotus Cortina that has and MOT gap between 1982 and 2015 as there are many legitimate reasons for that.
I cannot see this getting anywhere apart form another 5 years of skimming the surface and assuming everyone is a crook. Surface skimming is better than doing nothing but in 5 years has a sale resulted in an identified ringer at a later date that has been reported and nabbed?
To round off using the drugs analogy - flagging up the low life street corner 'one sale' dealers and where they don't stop the sale then buying the drugs from them in a world where their criminal intentions aren't assured anyway is not going to be a War On Drugs.
Back to your drug dealer analogy again. Drug dealers know they are breaking the law. Some of the people selling log books and vehicle identities have no idea they are but as stated the first time you brought it up... The ONLY way to get this regularised is for either the DVLA to review SORN's or to do a database of V5's for sale - or indeed both.
Alerting people to the sale will do nothing - it may be a long time before they are used and most buyers wouldnt give a toss anyway if they buy a Lotus Cortina that has and MOT gap between 1982 and 2015 as there are many legitimate reasons for that.
I cannot see this getting anywhere apart form another 5 years of skimming the surface and assuming everyone is a crook. Surface skimming is better than doing nothing but in 5 years has a sale resulted in an identified ringer at a later date that has been reported and nabbed?
To round off using the drugs analogy - flagging up the low life street corner 'one sale' dealers and where they don't stop the sale then buying the drugs from them in a world where their criminal intentions aren't assured anyway is not going to be a War On Drugs.
Judge said:
Ignorance is no defense.
If a vehicle like your Lotus Cortina (by the way there are more registered Lotus Cortina's now than were ever built thanks to people putting Elan engines in rolling shells before the DVLA was computerised) is dragged out of thirty years in a barn the owners club will be able to establish the vehicles identity and provide evidence to the DVLA so you can obtain a log book with either the original plate or an age related one if the original has been reallocated. You used to be able to get a VIC check as well but this system ended almost a year ago.
Again no need to buy a ringing kit you can get the identity checked and registered legitimately.
Having said that the Cortina that has been in a barn for thirty or more years would probably need a complete strip down and rebuild. In that case I would personally put it through vehicle approval as a rebuilt classic.
Edited by Liquid Knight on Saturday 8th October 14:02
This will go round in circles unless the very basics of the debate aren't addressed and it's shown that this method will amount to anything. You can't go on indefinitely buying V5's either its unsustainable apart from being borderline accessory, more so with no receipts to show they've gone back to DVLA.
Anyway I'll end it there and good luck to you all. Anything which prevents cars being stolen to order and with a V5 ready has to be a step in the right direction.
Anyway I'll end it there and good luck to you all. Anything which prevents cars being stolen to order and with a V5 ready has to be a step in the right direction.
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