RE: Driven: BMW M5

[Dagnut]

Zod said:

hat is simply untrue. Every M5 has had all of the creature comforts available on a 5 Series. There has never been a model in which they've left out the luxuries to save weight. I've spent time with the people who design, engineer and sell these cars on several occasions over the last decade and they've always been clear about what the M5 is: a luxury car engineered with a chassis and powertrain to make it perform like a sports car.

Edited by Zod on Friday 23 September 10:23

Not just every M5 , every M Car since the 80's bar the CSL..I don't know where people are getting this romantic notion of lightweight M car's.

[Zwoelf]

Zod said:

Verde said:

Sorry, but the older M5's made choices, biased toward the performance set and thus less of a fit for the masses.

That is simply untrue. Every M5 has had all of the creature comforts available on a 5 Series. There has never been a model in which they've left out the luxuries to save weight. I've spent time with the people who design, engineer and sell these cars on several occasions over the last decade and they've always been clear about what the M5 is: a luxury car engineered with a chassis and powertrain to make it perform like a sports car.

The whole F10 range will have been optimised for as low a weight as possible with the balance that must be reached between current materials/price, safety requirements in all markets, technology and equipment etc. It's weight has probably grow by significantly less, proportionate to its increased dimensions over the outgoing model, meaning that over time, the overall weight doesn't increase as much as it would have if it the F10 were built today using E34 levels of technology, materials and engineering knowledge.

That said, the M5 does have some model unique features to help ensure a sportier drive than other F10s. Such as:

• Virtually all the rubber bushes in the rear suspension removed, possible owing to the very high rigidty of the F10 shell and permitting an increased feeling of sportiness, the subframe now being bolted directly to the body.
• The whole engine and gearbox assembly being mounted 20mm lower in the car, with the benefits of lowering CofG and improving cooling.
• A flat underside, to improve aerodynamics, economy, and channels in that specifically to cool the gearbox and rear diff.
• Fuel tank increased by 10 litres over other F10s, to improve touring range - a big criticism of the E60.

[thewheelman]

Beefmeister said:

Another nice one from Chris Harris on Twitter:

Can someone tell me what 2 car combo beats this?



New M5 and Harris' own GT3 RS 4.0.

Git.


edit: Just noticed he's parked the 4.0 in a disabled space - one can only assume it just for taking the photo....

Edited by Beefmeister on Thursday 22 September 10:00

Many, many 2 car combos beat that. A 360CS & an RS6 off the top of my head. Mind you, in my opinion Harris is a tt that likes the sound of his own voice & has a huge ego, & his opinion means nothing to me.

[Zod]

thewheelman said:

Beefmeister said:

Another nice one from Chris Harris on Twitter:

Can someone tell me what 2 car combo beats this?



New M5 and Harris' own GT3 RS 4.0.

Git.


edit: Just noticed he's parked the 4.0 in a disabled space - one can only assume it just for taking the photo....

Edited by Beefmeister on Thursday 22 September 10:00

Many, many 2 car combos beat that. A 360CS & an RS6 off the top of my head. Mind you, in my opinion Harris is a tt that likes the sound of his own voice & has a huge ego, & his opinion means nothing to me.

Both good cars, but neither measures up to its counterpart in Harris's photo. They're not even close.

[Beefmeister]

Exactly. A 360 wouldn't see which way the RS 4.0 went, and the new M5 is superior in every single way to the RS6, bar wet weather traction.

[0a]

I do find myself wondering what the point of ever increasing power is. I did 4 hours on the UK motorway network last week in a 100 bhp TDI, and to be honest I wonder what difference another 450 bhp would make (and yes i've been a passenger for many a mile in the e60 M5). Mile after mile of roadworks with a 50 mph enforced average speed limit followed by new cameras that were not there the last time I used the same stretch. Even when the road was 'open' it was full of skodas doing 71 that would not pull left as there was a MLM 89 miles ahead. For the first time I thought the single thing a hyper-powerful car would do for me would be a driving ban in the very rare clear bits of road. Really depressing, and the whole 'recession' fuel economy thing seems to have made things worse.

I think I need a good European drive!

[David 997t]

E21_Ross said:

Zod said:

Why on Earth would you want a stripped-out lighweight four door saloon anyway?

this. people are being ridiculous on here. the M5 has always been a big heavy 4 door saloon for its time. it's always been oriented towards comfort as well as performance. this M5 is no different and by what autocar say is still the best to drive upon release date.

i bet 99% of the people who could afford these cars would happily take one over an E28 M5. i've been in one, as lovely as they are they aren't as refined, as safe, or as full of creature comforts of the modern cars.

it's all good and well lots of people on here moaning about it, but lots of people on here aren't in the position to buy an M5. those who want what the M5 represents....and always has represented i might add, are seemingly not going to be disappointed.

I have to agree with you 100%!!! I have had the previous 2 M5's from new and can clearly remember people saying the same things at launch, its too heavy its not involving enough to later change their minds.
The one that still makes me laugh is when they introduced the V10, alot of people where saying an M5 should be a V8! Now its "oh why scrap the GREAT V10 engine"
At the end of the day an M5 is a everyday car which will be happy to push a 911 Turbo down the road if needs be!(Yes I can vouch for this as I have had my M5 push my 997 Turbo down the road with a friend driving it!)
They are perfect for 4 people to travel in comfort across europe but also for a country lane thrash, they had to go to turbos for reason we all know I for one can't wait for my test drive and then my delivery!!(had one on order since 2009 so may be a touch M5 biased!!!)

[Johnboy Mac]

Zwoelf said:

The whole F10 range will have been optimised for as low a weight as possible with the balance that must be reached between current materials/price, safety requirements in all markets, technology and equipment etc. It's weight has probably grow by significantly less, proportionate to its increased dimensions over the outgoing model, meaning that over time, the overall weight doesn't increase as much as it would have if it the F10 were built today using E34 levels of technology, materials and engineering knowledge.

Sounds like an excuse for the 1900kg, the weight of a 7 Series.

[Zwoelf]

Johnboy Mac said:

Zwoelf said:

The whole F10 range will have been optimised for as low a weight as possible with the balance that must be reached between current materials/price, safety requirements in all markets, technology and equipment etc. It's weight has probably grow by significantly less, proportionate to its increased dimensions over the outgoing model, meaning that over time, the overall weight doesn't increase as much as it would have if it the F10 were built today using E34 levels of technology, materials and engineering knowledge.

Sounds like an excuse for the 1900kg, the weight of a 7 Series.

Which is what a significantly smaller, less technology laden, slower and less economical E32 Seven weighed nearly 25 years ago...

[Johnboy Mac]

Zwoelf said:

Which is what a significantly smaller, less technology laden, slower and less economical E32 Seven weighed nearly 25 years ago...

E32, did I mention it........no don't think so.

[E21_Ross]

Johnboy Mac said:

Zwoelf said:

Which is what a significantly smaller, less technology laden, slower and less economical E32 Seven weighed nearly 25 years ago...

E32, did I mention it........no don't think so.

no, but you did mention a 7 series; people are moaning about new cars being heavy...so, the top 750i 20+ years ago weighs a lot too but that's not moaned about. yet it's way slower, less economical, has far less tech in it and is nowhere near as safe.

[British Beef]

E21_Ross said:

British Beef said:

I will drive this new M5, but initial thoughts are the E63 AMG is more fun.

how come?

The E63 (with a "free flowing exhaust") I had for a few days is simply a better going and (arguably) sounding engine than any of the BMW V8s or V10s, to my ears at least, perhaps only giving way to the V10 in the final 1500rpm.

I am stuck in my ways a little and simply prefer the old school approach to big saloons. Big capacity engines, RWD and a reliability a bonus!

[E21_Ross]

British Beef said:

The E63 (with a "free flowing exhaust") I had for a few days is simply a better going and (arguably) sounding engine than any of the BMW V8s or V10s, to my ears at least, perhaps only giving way to the V10 in the final 1500rpm.

I am stuck in my ways a little and simply prefer the old school approach to big saloons. Big capacity engines, RWD and a reliability a bonus!

hence AMG cars are more for you. those who want a car which does that very well (but perhaps not quite so well) but when you really, really want to have fun, it can really raise its game onto a whole new level....that's when the M cars typically come into their own. and for some people, that makes it totally worth it.

both great at what they do, if slightly different approaches. interesting that the new 4.4 here is more powerful than the new 5.5 from merc even after the "power/performance pack" additional extra too.

[Johnboy Mac]

E21_Ross said:

no, but you did mention a 7 series; people are moaning about new cars being heavy...so, the top 750i 20+ years ago weighs a lot too but that's not moaned about. yet it's way slower, less economical, has far less tech in it and is nowhere near as safe.

Again, did I mention a twenty year old 750i, no. As you and the other OTT BMW fanboy obviously can't see that I talking about the current F01, which initially weighs in at 1940kg. As I said this M5 weighs as much as a 7 Series.

[thewheelman]

Zod said:

thewheelman said:

Beefmeister said:

Another nice one from Chris Harris on Twitter:

Can someone tell me what 2 car combo beats this?



New M5 and Harris' own GT3 RS 4.0.

Git.


edit: Just noticed he's parked the 4.0 in a disabled space - one can only assume it just for taking the photo....

Edited by Beefmeister on Thursday 22 September 10:00

Many, many 2 car combos beat that. A 360CS & an RS6 off the top of my head. Mind you, in my opinion Harris is a tt that likes the sound of his own voice & has a huge ego, & his opinion means nothing to me.

Both good cars, but neither measures up to its counterpart in Harris's photo. They're not even close.

Having driven all 4 cars mentioned, i'd take the 360CS & RS6 everytime. The Porsche & BMW don't even get close.

[E21_Ross]

Johnboy Mac said:

E21_Ross said:

no, but you did mention a 7 series; people are moaning about new cars being heavy...so, the top 750i 20+ years ago weighs a lot too but that's not moaned about. yet it's way slower, less economical, has far less tech in it and is nowhere near as safe.

Again, did I mention a twenty year old 750i, no. As you and the other OTT BMW fanboy obviously can't see that I talking about the current F01, which initially weighs in at 1940kg. As I said this M5 weighs as much as a 7 Series.

the E30 M3 weighed about 300kgs more than a 2002 turbo....that was a lard arse. if you think the point of a big uber saloon is to be a lightweight stripped out car which can carry 4-5 people in relative discomfort then you're mistaken.

i bet if they released the E34 M5 now it wouldn't sell very many at all, despite weighing a little bit less. i also suspect that if they made this new M5 without air con, electric heated seats, cruise control, ABS, adaptive suspension and all the other creature comforts businessmen want then the new M5 wouldn't sell very well at all. however, it might please a few members on PH.

[E21_Ross]

thewheelman said:

Having driven all 4 cars mentioned, i'd take the 360CS & RS6 everytime. The Porsche & BMW don't even get close.

when did you drive the new finished M5?

[thewheelman]

E21_Ross said:

thewheelman said:

Having driven all 4 cars mentioned, i'd take the 360CS & RS6 everytime. The Porsche & BMW don't even get close.

when did you drive the new finished M5?

Within the last week, why?

Personally, i'd still pick the RS6 above it, followed by the Mercedes E63 AMG & the Jaguar XFR.

[Zwoelf]

Johnboy Mac said:

Zwoelf said:

Which is what a significantly smaller, less technology laden, slower and less economical E32 Seven weighed nearly 25 years ago...

E32, did I mention it........no don't think so.

You obviously failed to understand the point I was making in my earlier remark that you quoted. But never mind, I'll take your slightly different point and put that back into context:

1986 E28 M5: 1,550kg
1986 E23 Seven: 1,530-,1690kg

1993 E34 M5: 1,670kg
1993 E32 Seven: 1,720-,1930kg

1999 E39 M5: 1,826kg
1999 E38 Seven: 1,710-2,185kg

2005 E60 M5: 1,855kg
2005 E65/66 Seven: 1,880-2,255kg

2011 F10 M5: 1,945kg
2011 F01/02 Seven: 1,935-2,250kg

Seems pretty consistent evolution to me. The top of the range Five just overlapping where the Seven starts. Pretty logical. Note the upper weight of the E32 and starting point of F01, which is the point I was making when you raised the issue of Seven Series weight being excessive at 1,900kg and how that's not new, but manages to be more efficient, more powerful, more economical and better equipped than its antecedent, despite the increase in both overall size and levels of luxury and performance between them.

Edited by Zwoelf on Friday 23 September 14:44

[Nors]

thewheelman said:

Within the last week, why?

Personally, i'd still pick the RS6 above it, followed by the Mercedes E63 AMG & the Jaguar XFR.

I think I get your point! Your not a fan of the latest M5.