RE: We Want To Build A Car Says BMW M Boss

[kambites]

marcosgt said:

Errr - Remind me again what the M stands for...?

I don't know these days. Are BMW's actual motorsport division and the road car M division still the same people?

[marcosgt]

I don't know either, but they certainly were when the first M3 was released.

It maybe more like the AMG arm now, but I'm pretty sure BMW Motorsport still build homologation specials, like the 320Si.

M.

[thewheelman]

e30s50b30 said:

thewheelman said:

The Merc 190 Cosworth more than challenged it.

Eh,The e30 m3 is the most successful touring car ever.

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

[marcosgt]

thewheelman said:

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

But that's only one, domestic series.

The M3 pissed on the 190's parade big style on the international scene.

Sorry, but them's the facts

M

[RWD cossie wil]

I think you are all wrong? The most successful touring car ever was the Sierra RS 500 Cosworth!

Best M-car? Probably the E39 M5...

[thewheelman]

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

But that's only one, domestic series.

The M3 pissed on the 190's parade big style on the international scene.

Sorry, but them's the facts

M

"pissed on" Huge exaggeration. Care to name all of these examples?

Edited by thewheelman on Monday 24th October 16:11

[TinyCappo]

Y282 said:

TinyCappo said:

Thats the loudest ive ever laughed at a post.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

Your welcome.

Seriously though i cant understand how BMW can say they cant make cars like we all want then they can produce abominations like the new facelifted 1 series!

I saw one when I was driving past a dealership that I had to pull in as I thought one had been in a accident! Without wanting offend anyone the only thing I could think of was that it looked like a Cylon with Downs!

[marcosgt]

thewheelman said:

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

But that's only one, domestic series.

The M3 pissed on the 190's parade big style on the international scene.

Sorry, but them's the facts

M

"pissed on" Huge exaggeration. Care to name all of these examples?

Mmmm - Well I hate to use Wikipedia as my source, but I don't have time to trawl around :

Significant victories in auto racing

Championships

World Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)
European Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1987 and 1988)
British Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1988 and 1991)
Italia Superturismo Championship; 4 titles (1987, 1989, 1990 and 1991)
Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft; 2 titles (1987 and 1989)
Australian Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)

Races

Guia Race; 5 wins (1987, 1988, 1991, 1992 and 1993)
24 Hours Nürburgring; 5 wins (1989–1992)
Spa 24 Hours; 4 wins (1987, 1988, 1990 and 1992)
World Rally Championship; 1 win (Tour de Corse, 1987)

I can't find a list of international wins for the Mercedes 190 - Happy to see one if you can...

M

[thewheelman]

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

But that's only one, domestic series.

The M3 pissed on the 190's parade big style on the international scene.

Sorry, but them's the facts

M

"pissed on" Huge exaggeration. Care to name all of these examples?

Mmmm - Well I hate to use Wikipedia as my source, but I don't have time to trawl around :

Significant victories in auto racing

Championships

World Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)
European Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1987 and 1988)
British Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1988 and 1991)
Italia Superturismo Championship; 4 titles (1987, 1989, 1990 and 1991)
Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft; 2 titles (1987 and 1989)
Australian Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)

Races

Guia Race; 5 wins (1987, 1988, 1991, 1992 and 1993)
24 Hours Nürburgring; 5 wins (1989–1992)
Spa 24 Hours; 4 wins (1987, 1988, 1990 and 1992)
World Rally Championship; 1 win (Tour de Corse, 1987)

I can't find a list of international wins for the Mercedes 190 - Happy to see one if you can...

M

So no example of the Mercedes being "pissed on" then. As for the the one off world touring car championship in '87, BMW won it by 1 point......not what i'd call being "pissed on". Will have a look for Mercedes race wins as i seem to remember it beating the BMW on many occasions.

[Johnboy Mac]

marcosgt said:

Mmmm - Well I hate to use Wikipedia as my source, but I don't have time to trawl around :

Significant victories in auto racing

Championships

World Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)
European Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1987 and 1988)
British Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1988 and 1991)
Italia Superturismo Championship; 4 titles (1987, 1989, 1990 and 1991)
Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft; 2 titles (1987 and 1989)
Australian Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)

Races

Guia Race; 5 wins (1987, 1988, 1991, 1992 and 1993)
24 Hours Nürburgring; 5 wins (1989–1992)
Spa 24 Hours; 4 wins (1987, 1988, 1990 and 1992)
World Rally Championship; 1 win (Tour de Corse, 1987)

I can't find a list of international wins for the Mercedes 190 - Happy to see one if you can...

M

Wow, that says a lot about the Merc so, considering it's the better road car.

[marcosgt]

thewheelman said:

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

But that's only one, domestic series.

The M3 pissed on the 190's parade big style on the international scene.

Sorry, but them's the facts

M

"pissed on" Huge exaggeration. Care to name all of these examples?

Mmmm - Well I hate to use Wikipedia as my source, but I don't have time to trawl around :

Significant victories in auto racing

Championships

World Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)
European Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1987 and 1988)
British Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1988 and 1991)
Italia Superturismo Championship; 4 titles (1987, 1989, 1990 and 1991)
Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft; 2 titles (1987 and 1989)
Australian Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)

Races

Guia Race; 5 wins (1987, 1988, 1991, 1992 and 1993)
24 Hours Nürburgring; 5 wins (1989–1992)
Spa 24 Hours; 4 wins (1987, 1988, 1990 and 1992)
World Rally Championship; 1 win (Tour de Corse, 1987)

I can't find a list of international wins for the Mercedes 190 - Happy to see one if you can...

M

So no example of the Mercedes being "pissed on" then. As for the the one off world touring car championship in '87, BMW won it by 1 point......not what i'd call being "pissed on". Will have a look for Mercedes race wins as i seem to remember it beating the BMW on many occasions.

Ok - well when you wake up from your dream, get back to us

Your obscure point about the WTCC seems really odd, since it was FORD they beat, not Mercedes...

I have no opinion on the M3 vs the 190E-2.3/2.5 as road cars, but, aside from the DTM, the 190 was not a successful racer, whereas the M3 was one of the most successful touring cars of all time worldwide.

To be fair, Mercedes never really put much effort into the 190 outside the DTM, but they were raced by private teams and didn't perform well.

M.

Edited by marcosgt on Monday 24th October 16:49

Edited by marcosgt on Monday 24th October 17:44

[jontysafe]

Mermaid said:

jontysafe said:

..
I think the new twin-turbo V8, with the wick turned up slightly, in a lightweight mid engine application based on a mixture of existing and new mechanicals would sell very well and again give BMW a halo model. I know I`d consider buying one. Anyone else?

Target the MP4-12C.

No, new price of not more than £100k.

[Pierscoe1]

"Our job is to sell emotion and fun, using the technology that's socially acceptable at the time. Whether that's a combustion engine or an electric motor, we don't care."

oxymoron isn't it? electric motor with "emotion" ?!?!?!??!
boo-hiss, again.

how 'bout putting all this R&D into something useful, like hybridising freight, making air travel hydro-carbon free, making all trains hydrogen-power-cell fuelled... ANYTHING else, but please just leave our poor cars alone

[thewheelman]

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

marcosgt said:

thewheelman said:

I was talking road cars, but since you like facts, here's some for you.....
The 190E 2.5-16V EvoII was the most successfull DTM race car of all time... most wins in a single season (1992 16 of 24 races) most pole positions, most fastest laps, most victorys, most leading km, most points scored by one model.

Enjoy

But that's only one, domestic series.

The M3 pissed on the 190's parade big style on the international scene.

Sorry, but them's the facts

M

"pissed on" Huge exaggeration. Care to name all of these examples?

Mmmm - Well I hate to use Wikipedia as my source, but I don't have time to trawl around :

Significant victories in auto racing

Championships

World Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)
European Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1987 and 1988)
British Touring Car Championship; 2 titles (1988 and 1991)
Italia Superturismo Championship; 4 titles (1987, 1989, 1990 and 1991)
Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft; 2 titles (1987 and 1989)
Australian Touring Car Championship; 1 title (1987)

Races

Guia Race; 5 wins (1987, 1988, 1991, 1992 and 1993)
24 Hours Nürburgring; 5 wins (1989–1992)
Spa 24 Hours; 4 wins (1987, 1988, 1990 and 1992)
World Rally Championship; 1 win (Tour de Corse, 1987)

I can't find a list of international wins for the Mercedes 190 - Happy to see one if you can...

M

So no example of the Mercedes being "pissed on" then. As for the the one off world touring car championship in '87, BMW won it by 1 point......not what i'd call being "pissed on". Will have a look for Mercedes race wins as i seem to remember it beating the BMW on many occasions.

Ok - well when you wake up from your dream, get back to us

I have no opinion on the M3 vs the 190E-2.3/2.5 as road cars, but, aside from the DTM, the 190 was not a successful racer, whereas the M3 was one of the most successful touring cars of all time worldwide.

To be fair, Mercedes never really put much effort into the 190 outside the DTM, but they were raced by private teams and didn't perform well.

M.

Edited by marcosgt on Monday 24th October 16:40

From what i can see, the 190e didnt do a great deal on the international scene. Not sure why? I just remember as a kid the Mercs doing very well in DTM. Still have visions of the silver & black AMG 190s from years ago. I think it was their success that led Mercedes to buy AMG.

[Mermaid]

jontysafe said:

Mermaid said:

jontysafe said:

..
I think the new twin-turbo V8, with the wick turned up slightly, in a lightweight mid engine application based on a mixture of existing and new mechanicals would sell very well and again give BMW a halo model. I know I`d consider buying one. Anyone else?

Target the MP4-12C.

No, new price of not more than £100k.

The M3 has always targeted 911 performance, at a much lower price.

And aren't Macca planning a £100k car - the MP4?

[Hellbound]

It won't work. Unless you really differentiate the model from BMW as a marque. May as well make this a total M venture with separate financials.

Having said that, the world is a different place since this beast;



If the AMG SLS is seen to be a sales 'success' (initial depreciation after sale is mostly irrelevant), which it is, along with the R8, then BMW M division has a market.

Only problem is it needs to be the best handling car the world has seen.

[predding]

"Anyone remember the good old days..."

You mean when petrol was 2/11 a GALLON / then 89p a litre etc etc and 22-25 mpg was easily manageable / acceptable...

By all means drive a V8 or V10 engined motor - great I agree (been there) but most of us live in the real world and consumption of 40-45 mpg with < 225 g/Kg is de-riguer as a baseline for it to remain relative to running a car in 'the good old days'

[Johnboy Mac]

thewheelman said:

From what i can see, the 190e didnt do a great deal on the international scene. Not sure why? I just remember as a kid the Mercs doing very well in DTM. Still have visions of the silver & black AMG 190s from years ago. I think it was their success that led Mercedes to buy AMG.

There were a number things that didn't favour the 190. Most importantly, Mercedes themselfs. They didn't have a race team since the tragic accident at Le Mans in the 50's and management weren't too keen from that point being involved in racing. When they did decide to return to motorsport the 2.3-16 was developed to go rallying which was dropped as it could not compete with the newly launched Audi Quattro. It wasn't till 1990 or thereabouts that they started giving full support, every late in the 190 2.5-16's life, but when they did it was a winner.

Edited by Johnboy Mac on Monday 24th October 17:07

[loose cannon]

RLK500 said:

...and that's were the issue lies.

The M division are more than likely car guys, the BMW Management are money guys.....

What he said !

[Mermaid]

loose cannon said:

RLK500 said:

...and that's were the issue lies.

The M division are more than likely car guys, the BMW Management are money guys.....

What he said !

+1, more so in the early days.

Peter Flohr, the MD of BMW M division in the early early 80's, enjoyed a 911 Turbo as his everyday road car.