RE: Driven: Ferrari 250 GTO Replica
Discussion
Mr Gear said:
BUT IT'S NOT A REAL FERRARI! WHY ARE THEY ALLOWED TO USE THE BADGES!?! IT SHOULD BE CRUSHED AND THE OWNER PUT IN JAIL FOR FRAUD! 
Etc etc.
WITH ALL MY HONEST RESPECT: SHUT UP AND GO HOME, PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Etc etc.
or is it just your sarcasm...
In 100 years time, you honestly want to race one of the original cars. You must be kidding.
There will be more and more replicas. And that is a good thing! Beautiful designs should be around and about and not hidden in secret collections!
Who cares, when is was built? Who cares on the the road or track whether it is an original...
Edited by vintageracer01 on Monday 31st October 19:17
God, such an outpouring of pure, unadulterated snobbery!
There is a HOOOOJ difference between this and an MR2/Datsun etc with wobbly bits of plastic attached to it.
The plastic replicas are an entirely different thing and can be horrific in some cases but this IS a Ferrari that has been worked on by craftsmen and could coceiveibly be reverted to a GTE if someone really wanted to.
It was originally built as a Ferrari, still is a Ferrari and still will be whether it stays as a "GTO" or GTE or someone even decides to re-body it as a 250LM.
Whats the difference between this and any other of the vast number of "specials" produced by coachbuilers since the "Motor car" was invented?
If I had the funds I'd buy it and use it.
The real joy of special cars is in driving them.
There is a HOOOOJ difference between this and an MR2/Datsun etc with wobbly bits of plastic attached to it.
The plastic replicas are an entirely different thing and can be horrific in some cases but this IS a Ferrari that has been worked on by craftsmen and could coceiveibly be reverted to a GTE if someone really wanted to.
It was originally built as a Ferrari, still is a Ferrari and still will be whether it stays as a "GTO" or GTE or someone even decides to re-body it as a 250LM.
Whats the difference between this and any other of the vast number of "specials" produced by coachbuilers since the "Motor car" was invented?
If I had the funds I'd buy it and use it.
The real joy of special cars is in driving them.
very well done, but still looks fake though, the rear 3/4's look wrong and the wheels dont sit right.. but a great attempt..
Mind you I wouldnt mind a top notch GT40 Replica.. now the good ones really are stunning. Unlike the the fake Lambo i saw a few weeks ago.. white with black wheels and a black roof.. the guy who owned it insisted in was genuine until i pointed out it said Toyota on his tax disc!! he didnt know what to say after that.. MUPPET
Mind you I wouldnt mind a top notch GT40 Replica.. now the good ones really are stunning. Unlike the the fake Lambo i saw a few weeks ago.. white with black wheels and a black roof.. the guy who owned it insisted in was genuine until i pointed out it said Toyota on his tax disc!! he didnt know what to say after that.. MUPPET
I know this is a repeat but:
I am all for this type of recreation. More people get to enjoy the look and feel of a truly classic automobile. More fans get to see these cars in action on the raceway and even on the street. The increased visibility does nothing to diminish to devalue the original and may in fact boost it by increasing the frequency of visibility in the eyes of fans and potential buyers.
But destroying a similar and valuable car (or transforming one) to create a more valued one just seems fundamentally wrong. Of course people can do what they wish, but (to me) the skill of a replica-maker is measured by their ability to synthesize 'as original' parts for the new machine. Cutting/chopping/re-using a valued machine to create more value just seem troubling. I love the look and concept of this car, but would never be party to more destruction.
I am all for this type of recreation. More people get to enjoy the look and feel of a truly classic automobile. More fans get to see these cars in action on the raceway and even on the street. The increased visibility does nothing to diminish to devalue the original and may in fact boost it by increasing the frequency of visibility in the eyes of fans and potential buyers.
But destroying a similar and valuable car (or transforming one) to create a more valued one just seems fundamentally wrong. Of course people can do what they wish, but (to me) the skill of a replica-maker is measured by their ability to synthesize 'as original' parts for the new machine. Cutting/chopping/re-using a valued machine to create more value just seem troubling. I love the look and concept of this car, but would never be party to more destruction.
Verde said:
Cutting/chopping/re-using a valued machine to create more value just seem troubling. I love the look and concept of this car, but would never be party to more destruction.
I really don't think it's purely about creating more value, it's even questionable after the expense of creating a GTO rep from a GTE that one would be better off financially.The real point of doing a rep is simply an original is out of reach of 99.9% of the motoring population, so for a 'fraction' @ 15% of the cost, one can have a Ferrari GTE converted to a GTO, makes a lot of sense to me especially that it allows owners to use their 'GTO' with a little more peace of mind, thus the rep could be seen as more enjoyable than the original. Actually, a top notch rep GTO makes the original look very, very poor valve imo other than the original always remaining a sure fire mega investment, if that's the reason for buying one.
Another point too. Would anybody miss not seeing GTE when they can see a GTO instead, thanks to the existence of the GTE donor car in the first place? I do have some reservations being honest but totally understand the attitude of chopping a GTE.
I don't know & have no idea but I wouldn't be surprised even if Ferrari in the day used a base GTE to make a GTO!
Edited by Johnboy Mac on Monday 7th November 04:46
vintageracer01 said:
Mr Gear said:
BUT IT'S NOT A REAL FERRARI! WHY ARE THEY ALLOWED TO USE THE BADGES!?! IT SHOULD BE CRUSHED AND THE OWNER PUT IN JAIL FOR FRAUD!
Etc etc.
WITH ALL MY HONEST RESPECT: SHUT UP AND GO HOME, PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Etc etc.
or is it just your sarcasm...
In 100 years time, you honestly want to race one of the original cars. You must be kidding.
There will be more and more replicas. And that is a good thing! Beautiful designs should be around and about and not hidden in secret collections!
Who cares, when is was built? Who cares on the the road or track whether it is an original...
Edited by vintageracer01 on Monday 31st October 19:17
And a blindingly obvious one at that. I even added "etc etc" at the end to help the hard of thinking.
while destroying more humble limousines or coupes of the same vintage is
just disgusting.
For me it equals taking a less nown picasso for the worth of its canvas
and having it repainted as the 31st copy of the "dove" just to make sure
every idiot sees it is a Picasso!
It shows a lack of respect for the marque as well as a the lack of taste and
imagination that those new money Ferrari "collectors" sport. The driving experience
in the 250GTE would not have been much different, but foolishly one insists on
driving a fake GTO instead.
One of the "leftovers" on "bringatrailer":
http://bringatrailer.com/2011/05/14/partial-perfec...
Those "investors" are vultures in business and vultures they stay in their "hobby"
which in turn becomes a business itself.
Edited by Martin 480 Turbo on Friday 4th November 10:37
Edited by Martin 480 Turbo on Friday 4th November 10:40
Martin 480 Turbo said:
*
This increasing trend of building "replicas" or historical "sports specials"
while destroying more humble limousines or coupes of the same vintage is
just disgusting.
For me it equals taking a less nown picasso for the worth of its canvas
and having it repainted as the 31st copy of the "dove" just to make sure
every idiot sees it is a Picasso!
It shows a lack of respect for the marque as well as a the lack of taste and
imagination that those new money Ferrari "collectors" sport. The driving experience
in the 250GTE would not have been much different, but foolishly one insists on
driving a fake GTO instead.
What a load of rubbish, each Picasso is a one off and frankly if somebody wants to buy one and deface it that is their option. The fact is that nobody would because they would be destroying value. In this case they are generating value by creating a nicer car by modifying it. This increasing trend of building "replicas" or historical "sports specials"
while destroying more humble limousines or coupes of the same vintage is
just disgusting.
For me it equals taking a less nown picasso for the worth of its canvas
and having it repainted as the 31st copy of the "dove" just to make sure
every idiot sees it is a Picasso!
It shows a lack of respect for the marque as well as a the lack of taste and
imagination that those new money Ferrari "collectors" sport. The driving experience
in the 250GTE would not have been much different, but foolishly one insists on
driving a fake GTO instead.
Some cars like a 250GTO, a Ford GT40, a D-Type have an emotional significance which means that you don't want to improve them. A 250GTE on the other hand is just an old Ferrari 456 it holds very little emotional significance.
The GTO was created by modifying a road going 250, this project is essentially doing the same thing. When you drive it imagine you feel like you are at Le-Mans in 1963, I doubt you'd get that from a 250GTE.
The fact is that a 1950s car is most likely going to have been restored in which case the originality of it is gone. If in the far future a 250GTE actually becomes worth more than a 250 GTO replica then you could convert the car back again it always will be a genuine 250GTE.
Talksteer said:
The fact is that a 1950s car is most likely going to have been restored in which case the originality of it is gone. If in the far future a 250GTE actually becomes worth more than a 250 GTO replica then you could convert the car back again it always will be a genuine 250GTE.
The GTE's are a 1960's car, however PF coupes have also been gutted to make TestaRossa and TDF replicas.But a few years ago, one of the reasons why people rebodied them was that it costs a similar ammount to restore a GTE properly as it does to turn one into a tool room copy of a 250 GTO. . . . . which is why I cant see a point in time when people will want to reinstate the correct bodywork.
Thankfuly there are a growing number of people capable of understanding that a good GTE, with the right spec engine, can be more fun on the road than a GTO replica
Talksteer said:
Some cars like a 250GTO, a Ford GT40, a D-Type have an emotional significance which means that you don't want to improve them. A 250GTE on the other hand is just an old Ferrari 456 it holds very little emotional significance.
The GTO was created by modifying a road going 250, this project is essentially doing the same thing. When you drive it imagine you feel like you are at Le-Mans in 1963, I doubt you'd get that from a 250GTE.
I think you need to spend more time educating yourself before you comment. Firstly a 250GTE holds great emotional significance to the vintage Ferrari enthousiast. There are not that many left in great condition, and they are getting fewer every year because of these idiotic projects. There can't be more than 300 left, if that. Secondly, an original 250GTE holds much more emotional significance than a replica 250GTO, which has no history at all. A friend of mine restored a 250GTE and had it Classiche certified. It was perfect in every way. A real 250GTO owner bought the car, lifted engine to fit his GTO for racing, then dumped the now practically worthless 250GTE back on the market, the originality for ever lost. My friend is still distraught about it. This is not even as bad as cutting up a 250GTE permanently for a replica, never to be seen again in its original form. Every single replica owner I have met wants to pretend to be somebody they are not. They invariably claim their car is the real deal and get very upset when someone points out it is a replica. It is pathetic, and these replica's are making it harder for owners of original Ferrari's to keep their cars running as spares are getting scarcer. Except 250GTE interior parts, perhaps. And what makes it even worse, is that many 250GTE's are sacrified for 250GTO replica's that don't even look like the real thing to the trained eye. The car here is not the worst effort I've seen but it is also not the best. The GTO was created by modifying a road going 250, this project is essentially doing the same thing. When you drive it imagine you feel like you are at Le-Mans in 1963, I doubt you'd get that from a 250GTE.
Several years ago, I was not against replica's because I didn't realise the destruction of vintage Ferrari heritage that is going on. Now that I am wiser, I have turned purist. These replicas are made for the vanity of people who want to pretend, they are not made to drive (in the far majority of cases). As the owner of a 330GTC with a history file going back to 1966, I feel justified in being much prouder of that car than I would ever be owning a replica, no matter how well it was made. If my GTC was destroyed to create a replica, I would buy a gun and hunt down the guy who did it. And people who opinionate here have most likely never driven a vintage Ferrari. The 250GTE is a great car to drive. My 330GTC is a phenomenal car to drive as I can justifiably say after driving it for 15,000kms in the past two and a half years, in among other places the Mille Miglia Tribute. Leave them as they are or restore them to what they were. And just be satisfied that you have a fantastic piece of Ferrari history, which nobody can ever point at to say "it's fake".
And by the way, the 250GTO was NOT created by modifying a road going 250. Do you think you will win Le Mans doing that? The car was developed from scratch, although it was an evolution rather than a revolution and parts were taken from the 250SWB (which in itself was also developed as a race car, not a road car).
Onno
JazzyO said:
The 250GTE is a great car to drive.
Onno
I read you post and understand the points you made, not being a classic Ferrari owner or for that matter any type of Ferrari owner I couldn't really argue with you even if I wished. Onno
What, I do have reservations about is something like a GTE being a great drive, are they really once you look past the pancing horse on the steering wheel and the sound of a V12?
Johnboy Mac said:
I read you post and understand the points you made, not being a classic Ferrari owner or for that matter any type of Ferrari owner I couldn't really argue with you even if I wished.
What, I do have reservations about is something like a GTE being a great drive, are they really once you look past the pancing horse on the steering wheel and the sound of a V12?
It all depends on what kind of frame of mind you put yourself into. They are great to drive for the period, if you consider that they are 2+2 small limousines. They are not racing cars of course and they're not really for driving on the limit.What, I do have reservations about is something like a GTE being a great drive, are they really once you look past the pancing horse on the steering wheel and the sound of a V12?
The later road cars with independent rear suspension and shorter wheel base, such as the 275GTB and 330GTC are a lot better to drive - my GTC is great on the limit. Powering out of a hairpin on a Swiss mountain with your butt braking traction (you sit on the rear axle) is a great feeling.
The point is that these cars were built for a certain purpose and that is the heritage that should be maintained. Within the context of their inception they are great cars. Why destroy that to pretend you're driving at Le Mans for GBP300k+? Buy a perfect 330GTC for less money instead and fling it around. The engine howl over 6,000 rpms is identical to the 330GTO's. The gear change is identical. They're not racing cars but they give you an experience that lets you touch the racing heritage without destroying anything. And if you save up for a couple of years (if you can buy a 300kGBP replica this shouldn't be too much of a stretch), buy a 275GTB and get the real racing experience.
Onno
JazzyO said:
They are great to drive for the period, if you consider that they are 2+2 small limousines.
The later road cars with independent rear suspension and shorter wheel base, such as the 275GTB and 330GTC are a lot better to drive
The point is that these cars were built for a certain purpose and that is the heritage that should be maintained.
Onno
Interesting.The later road cars with independent rear suspension and shorter wheel base, such as the 275GTB and 330GTC are a lot better to drive
The point is that these cars were built for a certain purpose and that is the heritage that should be maintained.
Onno
Hi Onno,
good seeing a proud, for real owner of vintage Ferraris surfacing onto this thread.
I feel the article about the GTO replica should have been written by someone with
deeper knowledge on the subject.
I'd love to see you compliment this thread with some pictures of your car.
I am simply disgusted of the amount of cars that are butchered by the vintage car dealers,
today. Sometimes highly original cars get delivered there, with bent wire spoke wheels and
dirty interiors covered in patterned silk cloth. But all those Talbot Lagos, Lagondas and
Cisitalias leave the grounds in the same shades of silver and dove grey with red or maroon
leather seats.
This really is simular to doing up pretty women from all over europe with the same set
of fake breasts, dressing them in red swimsuits. There certainly is a market for that,
but it is nothing to the real connaisseur.
Martin 480 Turbo
good seeing a proud, for real owner of vintage Ferraris surfacing onto this thread.
I feel the article about the GTO replica should have been written by someone with
deeper knowledge on the subject.
I'd love to see you compliment this thread with some pictures of your car.
I am simply disgusted of the amount of cars that are butchered by the vintage car dealers,
today. Sometimes highly original cars get delivered there, with bent wire spoke wheels and
dirty interiors covered in patterned silk cloth. But all those Talbot Lagos, Lagondas and
Cisitalias leave the grounds in the same shades of silver and dove grey with red or maroon
leather seats.
This really is simular to doing up pretty women from all over europe with the same set
of fake breasts, dressing them in red swimsuits. There certainly is a market for that,
but it is nothing to the real connaisseur.
Martin 480 Turbo
Edited by Martin 480 Turbo on Monday 7th November 11:28
Edited by Martin 480 Turbo on Monday 7th November 11:32
vintageracer01 said:
WITH ALL MY HONEST RESPECT: SHUT UP AND GO HOME, PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
or is it just your sarcasm...
In 100 years time, you honestly want to race one of the original cars. You must be kidding.
There will be more and more replicas. And that is a good thing! Beautiful designs should be around and about and not hidden in secret collections!
Who cares, when is was built? Who cares on the the road or track whether it is an original...
If it has a knock on, on the values of the originals it sodding well isn't. or is it just your sarcasm...
In 100 years time, you honestly want to race one of the original cars. You must be kidding.
There will be more and more replicas. And that is a good thing! Beautiful designs should be around and about and not hidden in secret collections!
Who cares, when is was built? Who cares on the the road or track whether it is an original...
Edited by vintageracer01 on Monday 31st October 19:17
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