RE: Driven: Ferrari 250 GTO Replica

RE: Driven: Ferrari 250 GTO Replica

Author
Discussion

JazzyO

1,125 posts

180 months

Monday 7th November 2011
quotequote all
Yadayada - I've heard the weak argumentation so many times before. There is no reason to pay more for a replica than an exquisite Ferrari from the same era other than: I want to pretend to be Nick Mason.

Buy something proper and original instead. Help keep the heritage alive. And drive it. Properly. So that you understand what these cars are REALLY about.


Onno




Johnboy Mac

2,666 posts

177 months

Monday 7th November 2011
quotequote all
JazzyO said:
Yadayada - I've heard the weak argumentation so many times before. There is no reason to pay more for a replica than an exquisite Ferrari from the same era other than: I want to pretend to be Nick Mason.

Buy something proper and original instead. Help keep the heritage alive. And drive it. Properly. So that you understand what these cars are REALLY about.


Onno



Looks bloody good that 330, navy really suits it. All the same it's not a GTE as being discussed in this thread, I suspect there's a big difference between both.

I'd be a bit surprised that people are paying 300k + to be Nick Mason, simply because they own a GTO rep. If you are correct there's more questionable people owning classic Ferrari's than I originally believed.

Also, you failed to point out a fact that the likes of the less loved GTE when purchased in poor condition are sometimes converted to GTO rep's as it's not viable to restore the GTE to original condition. So, thankfully in this scenario a classic Ferrari is saved and in the process converted to a far nicer car, not forgettig a lot money has been injected in the classic car industry, thus keeping craftsmen employed and their skills alive.



Edited by Johnboy Mac on Monday 7th November 20:53

RichB

51,433 posts

283 months

Monday 7th November 2011
quotequote all
JazzyO said:
There is no reason to pay more for a replica than an exquisite Ferrari from the same era other than: I want to pretend to be Nick Mason.
Perhaps they could just get a drum kit hehe


Bryan P

1 posts

148 months

Monday 7th November 2011
quotequote all
I am new here, but had to comment on the article. I guess I am a "purist" because I do not like to see real 250GEs, 330GTs and other original Ferraris cut up to be something they never were; it is odd to see the term "purist" constantly used in a perjorative manner. Makes you wonder who the real Ferrari enthusiasts are; those who care about the dwindling number of real Ferraris, or the ones advocating cutting them up into replica "GTOs" to get some kind of "authentic" driving experience.

One of the problems in comparing these particular replicas (the ones that cannibalize GTEs) to GT40s or Cobras is that the relative number of donor cars is starkly different; how many thousands of 427 motors do you suppose Ford made? I agree with Onno's post that the best estimate from the keeper of the 250GTE register is that between 300 and 500 GTEs remain out of the 1000 or so that were built (of all three series). There simply are not loads of 330s and 250GTEs lying around waiting to be cut-up; the number is in the hundreds, not thousands.

These original cars are dying by the dozens every year. Between the fake-makers and the guys who own and race real-deal 250SWBs, the project 330s and GTEs don't stand a chance. The SWB owners only want the 3 and 4 liter motors - the project GTEs/330s have become nothing more than carrying cases for the motor. If an SWB owner can get a project 330 or GTE for less than about $60,000, then he is ahead, since that's what I hear the Factory is charging to make a tipo 209 motor from scratch.

I heard a very disturbing story that the very first 330 America (looks like a GTE, but with 330 drivetrain) is about to be sold and gutted for its motor. I also understand that the protoptipo 4-headlight 330GT (5263) was chopped up last year for a fake.

I also think that the "people can do whatever they want w/ their money" argument also misses the point. The guy who owns the original Picasso can also have his teenage daughter "improve" the painting; it's his and he can afford it. The point not whether he "can" do it, or whether he has the "right" to do it, but SHOULD he allow it? I like to think of vintage Ferrari ownership as stewardship of amazing, low production cars by made by Enzo Ferrari.

As far as the "GTE is undesirable" argument; Enzo drove both a GTE and subsequently a 330GT as his daily drivers; good enough for him, clearly. I would be interested to know, if there was any way to quantify, what percentage of people who are just dying to get a fake GTO have actually ever driven a GTE or 330GT? They are amazing cars and I guarantee you they deliver the authentic vintage Ferrari experience; from the byzantine 5-step starting process, to the sounds and smells that simply cannot be replicated. In this day and age, restoring a vintage Ferrari 2+2 rarely makes financial sense - ask me how I know (365 GT 2+2, s/n 11199), but there are those out there who will do it if we can get our hands on the cars before the replica-makers do.

Of course the mystique of the 39 original GTOs is much greater than that of either a GTE or 330GT. But that doesn't make it right, in my view, to try to replicate one at the expense of the other. Of course the market demand for an "affordable GTO" is greater than that for a GTE; but all this provides is a supply and demand truism, and does not address the ethical dilemma of the situation.

I hope I have not offended anyone - particularly with this as my first post on this site - with my arguments/rebuttals, but this is an extremely important issue. You have no idea what the rate of carnage is with the PF Coupes, GTEs and 330GTs. I am in touch w/ the keepers of the registries for all of these cars, and the news is very, very bad. My typical message in these arguments is "how many have to be destroyed before they are sufficiently rare enough to warrant ending the destruction? 50? 20?" These were already low production cars; roughly 1000 GTEs, 50 330 Americas, a little over 1000 330GTs and only 353 PF Coupes. Best guess 10 years ago was that about half to 60% remained; it is much less now, driven almost entirely by the replica industry and vintage racers looking for spare motors. If I persuade even one person from thinking that making a fake from a real Ferrari is a good idea, then it is a good day.

RichB

51,433 posts

283 months

Monday 7th November 2011
quotequote all
Bryan P said:
...If I persuade even one person from thinking that making a fake from a real Ferrari is a good idea, then it is a good day.
clap

Johnboy Mac

2,666 posts

177 months

Monday 7th November 2011
quotequote all
Bryan P said:
I am new here, but had to comment on the article. I guess I am a "purist" because I do not like to see real 250GEs, 330GTs and other original Ferraris cut up to be something they never were; it is odd to see the term "purist" constantly used in a perjorative manner. Makes you wonder who the real Ferrari enthusiasts are; those who care about the dwindling number of real Ferraris, or the ones advocating cutting them up into replica "GTOs" to get some kind of "authentic" driving experience.

One of the problems in comparing these particular replicas (the ones that cannibalize GTEs) to GT40s or Cobras is that the relative number of donor cars is starkly different; how many thousands of 427 motors do you suppose Ford made? I agree with Onno's post that the best estimate from the keeper of the 250GTE register is that between 300 and 500 GTEs remain out of the 1000 or so that were built (of all three series). There simply are not loads of 330s and 250GTEs lying around waiting to be cut-up; the number is in the hundreds, not thousands.

These original cars are dying by the dozens every year. Between the fake-makers and the guys who own and race real-deal 250SWBs, the project 330s and GTEs don't stand a chance. The SWB owners only want the 3 and 4 liter motors - the project GTEs/330s have become nothing more than carrying cases for the motor. If an SWB owner can get a project 330 or GTE for less than about $60,000, then he is ahead, since that's what I hear the Factory is charging to make a tipo 209 motor from scratch.

I heard a very disturbing story that the very first 330 America (looks like a GTE, but with 330 drivetrain) is about to be sold and gutted for its motor. I also understand that the protoptipo 4-headlight 330GT (5263) was chopped up last year for a fake.

I also think that the "people can do whatever they want w/ their money" argument also misses the point. The guy who owns the original Picasso can also have his teenage daughter "improve" the painting; it's his and he can afford it. The point not whether he "can" do it, or whether he has the "right" to do it, but SHOULD he allow it? I like to think of vintage Ferrari ownership as stewardship of amazing, low production cars by made by Enzo Ferrari.

As far as the "GTE is undesirable" argument; Enzo drove both a GTE and subsequently a 330GT as his daily drivers; good enough for him, clearly. I would be interested to know, if there was any way to quantify, what percentage of people who are just dying to get a fake GTO have actually ever driven a GTE or 330GT? They are amazing cars and I guarantee you they deliver the authentic vintage Ferrari experience; from the byzantine 5-step starting process, to the sounds and smells that simply cannot be replicated. In this day and age, restoring a vintage Ferrari 2+2 rarely makes financial sense - ask me how I know (365 GT 2+2, s/n 11199), but there are those out there who will do it if we can get our hands on the cars before the replica-makers do.

Of course the mystique of the 39 original GTOs is much greater than that of either a GTE or 330GT. But that doesn't make it right, in my view, to try to replicate one at the expense of the other. Of course the market demand for an "affordable GTO" is greater than that for a GTE; but all this provides is a supply and demand truism, and does not address the ethical dilemma of the situation.

I hope I have not offended anyone - particularly with this as my first post on this site - with my arguments/rebuttals, but this is an extremely important issue. You have no idea what the rate of carnage is with the PF Coupes, GTEs and 330GTs. I am in touch w/ the keepers of the registries for all of these cars, and the news is very, very bad. My typical message in these arguments is "how many have to be destroyed before they are sufficiently rare enough to warrant ending the destruction? 50? 20?" These were already low production cars; roughly 1000 GTEs, 50 330 Americas, a little over 1000 330GTs and only 353 PF Coupes. Best guess 10 years ago was that about half to 60% remained; it is much less now, driven almost entirely by the replica industry and vintage racers looking for spare motors. If I persuade even one person from thinking that making a fake from a real Ferrari is a good idea, then it is a good day.
Genuine factory 250GTO = 20M
Genuine factory 250GTE, converted to a GTO rep = 300K

^^^

That's the problem, which in turn upsets the Ferrari purists. Who caused this situation/problem? Well, believe it or not Ferrari owners/collectors and aspiring owners. Hard to have much sympathy imo, even if I have my own reservations about chopping a GTE.



PAUL. S

2,627 posts

245 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
Far to must hand wringing on this thread over some chunks of metal. My god you would think the replica builders also rape and pillage in their spare time just for fun, and slaughter endangered animals to make into trinkets, based on the holier than thou brigades perceptions.

It is well known that Enzo didnt give a monkeys over what happens to the road cars once they left the factory, as long as he had the money from their sales to plough back into the race program.

I doubt any decent donors are getting chopped up to make the replicas, just the bottom of the barrel dross that no one including the so called purists would ever dare to sink any money into. If they feel so strongly about it then they should all band together and buy them up and let them rust away in peace, safe in the knowledge no one will get any more enjoyment out of them.

Better to have a nice well built reproduction of a very rare car running around that people can enjoy rather than some rusting hulk. The best of the GTEs will still live untouched, and be around for many years to come.

If anything then blame the owners of the real deal if they are buying up the decent GTEs cars just to remove the engines for spares.

Martin 480 Turbo

601 posts

186 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
"I doubt any decent donors are getting chopped up to make the replicas, just the bottom of the barrel dross that no one including the so called purists would ever dare to sink any money into"

any evidence, any facts ?

Presenting this "opinion" despite the facts provided in this thread makes me doubt your ability
to read. Or your familiarity with the matter, at least.

Sorry.

PAUL. S

2,627 posts

245 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
I will turn that question back on you, do you have any evidence of decent cars being turned into GTOs? and causing you such heartache

The undisputable fact is that if it was financially profitable to turn "any" GTE whether it be a ropey old rustbucket or a concours example into a GTO then there would not be any unmolested ones left in the market.

The fact that decent examples hold there own as they are, and not just as a donor prove its only the bottom end of the market examples that lend themselves to conversion.

Regarding your comment as to whether I know enough about the matter, I am happy to tell you I am currently converting my existing ferrari into another example of the marque, using wherever possible the original components, and it will be quite a unique car when finished, which I shall be proud to own and tell whoever wants to listen how it started its life before the conversion, and the fact that had I not rescued it, then no one else would have taken up the challenge and the original car would have been lost for ever.

Edited by PAUL. S on Tuesday 8th November 20:32

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

216 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
PAUL. S said:
I will turn that question back on you, do you have any evidence of decent cars being turned into GTOs?
Just one of many examples would be 3905GT, details on Tom Yangs website

PAUL. S

2,627 posts

245 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
A story from 10 years ago, of an example well past its prime.

The Michael Sheehan article from 2006 confirms that even back then it was no longer financially viable to do the conversions.

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

216 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
PAUL. S said:
A story from 10 years ago, of an example well past its prime.

The Michael Sheehan article from 2006 confirms that even back then it was no longer financially viable to do the conversions.
You wanted a documented example of a GTE with no issues being cut up, and not only did you get a documented example, but you got one detailing why for some owners, the cost or potential profitability of the conversion isn’t a factor wink

PAUL. S

2,627 posts

245 months

PAUL. S

2,627 posts

245 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
AndrewW-G said:
You wanted a documented example of a GTE with no issues being cut up, and not only did you get a documented example, but you got one detailing why for some owners, the cost or potential profitability of the conversion isn’t a factor wink
I suggested showing documented examples of good cars "recently" being cut up to become GTOs, which was causing the GTE to now become an endangered species as a result, not one from over 10 years ago that had been well used beforehand and then laid up. The actual car had not even been cut up, its organs had been removed and the rest no doubt allowed many others GTEs to live on to this day. The article above shows there are enough converted cars already out there to satisfy demand, and its just not worth doing the conversion any more hence GTEs are not being reduced in numbers as a result.

Edited by PAUL. S on Tuesday 8th November 21:17

AndrewW-G

11,968 posts

216 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
PAUL. S said:
Mike's article simply reinforces my position, quite a few of the GTO conversions are completed not for financial gain, but for a desire for the GTO experience, or in the case of 3781, because the owner wanted another GTO spec car to practice in.

Having been distantly involved in a UK collectors transformation of 2 GTE’s into GTO’s, I can assure you that every penny spent on a decent donor car, is reclaimed when refurbishing the donor parts or selling the unused parts on when the conversion has finished

PAUL. S

2,627 posts

245 months

Tuesday 8th November 2011
quotequote all
Ah so you are actually a repentful sinner, who has now seen the error of his ways smile

AndrewW-G said:
Mike's article simply reinforces my position, quite a few of the GTO conversions are completed not for financial gain, but for a desire for the GTO experience, or in the case of 3781, because the owner wanted another GTO spec car to practice in.

Having been distantly involved in a UK collectors transformation of 2 GTE’s into GTO’s, I can assure you that every penny spent on a decent donor car, is reclaimed when refurbishing the donor parts or selling the unused parts on when the conversion has finished

dinkel

26,886 posts

257 months

Friday 11th November 2011
quotequote all
Wikipedia about the Lamborghini Espada: 1217 cars were made, making it the most successful Lamborghini model at the time.

How many do still exist and drive? Most were chopped in favour for a Miura or any other desireable Lambo to have the revvy 3.9 . . . Sad.

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Monday 2nd January 2012
quotequote all
JazzyO said:
And by the way, the 250GTO was NOT created by modifying a road going 250. Do you think you will win Le Mans doing that?
I vaguely remember some insignificant British outfit doing exactly that as recently as 1995... wink

Edmundo2

1,328 posts

209 months

Tuesday 3rd January 2012
quotequote all
anything fast said:
very well done, but still looks fake though, the rear 3/4's look wrong and the wheels dont sit right.. but a great attempt..

Mind you I wouldnt mind a top notch GT40 Replica.. now the good ones really are stunning. Unlike the the fake Lambo i saw a few weeks ago.. white with black wheels and a black roof.. the guy who owned it insisted in was genuine until i pointed out it said Toyota on his tax disc!! he didnt know what to say after that.. MUPPET laugh
+1. No issue with replicas unless I can tell it's a replica from 20 paces because it looks a tad characteur. This one is a great effort and I've seen DBR1s and others that are also wonderful. Problem is that with cars such as these that were built in such low numbers with very little changes through tiny production runs, any send off will be apparent to a keen eye. Nothing wrong with that in principal but for me it will always look a tad mock tudor - quite authentic but the difference in detail vs original + years of traditional repairs etc..means any repro will lack the absolute classic lines/stance/patina of an original. The replica is a lovely car in it's own right but almost a shame it wasn't just built as a rebodied GTE that didn't try to replicate a GTO. I'm sure the best body guys could build something almost as beautiful as an original GTO without having to copy it - just a clean sheet one off built in a style that screams 60's GT racer. Sure it wouldn't catch the odd punter out who might muistake it as the real thing + probably not be worth as much but whilst they say that....( something? )..., is the greatest form of flattery I fear this is only true if you are the one being flattered and to be the pretender always looks a bit lame unless you absolutely nail it to a point where you are indistinguishable from the real thing - at which point there's no difference any way. Much prefer replicas that are happy to wear it on there sleeve and are meerly an appreciative nod to a hero rather than something trying to pass itself off as a the real mcoy but doesn't quite carry it off. Nice car none the less and bet it's a great drive!

Miguel

1,030 posts

264 months

Tuesday 24th July 2012
quotequote all
I'd be really upset if someone cut up an original 250 GTO to make a 250 GTE replica. wink Frankly, I'm sure many ratty 250 GTE's and other equivalent cars get chopped up to restore more interesting models. Jaguar saloon parts used in E-Type restorations, etc. It happens all the time. All cars can't be saved. Some will not be saved simply because it's not financially feasible, while others are just too far gone. I'm sure any restorer would say the same thing.

So instead of letting a GTE rot or using some of its mechanicals to restore a more valuable model, the parts went into this 250 GTO replica, which probably drives like an original. I say the sacrificed GTE went to a good cause. What I don't see is a whole lot of people stepping up and buying ratty GTE's and spending their hard-earned on restorations. Frankly, I don't blame them, but I don't pretend to be a bleeding-heart purist.