RE: Lotus Finally Gets Government Cash
Discussion
Should have given it to Ginetta imo (still 'truly' British) not on a company that seems to have lost totally the aims of its creator.
No matter, Ginetta has proven they don't need it, exhibited by their first 2 new road cars in an age, the first the G40R getting the thumbs up by Autocar and the latest, the G60, putting more than one over the Evora this week in the same mag.
Just my bias opinion of course!
No matter, Ginetta has proven they don't need it, exhibited by their first 2 new road cars in an age, the first the G40R getting the thumbs up by Autocar and the latest, the G60, putting more than one over the Evora this week in the same mag.
Just my bias opinion of course!
British Beef said:
Most people are sceptical about the Lotus new line up, emerging on time or at all. Is there any update on the progress of the new Esprit, Eclat, Elan etc ????
I really hope that by 2014 the UK has these home grown supercars being built (partly) in Britain by (some) British people.
I think many moaners posting on here are actually Lotus fans that are p!ssed with Lotus / Bahr for the percieved waste of money and brand deflation in dodgy advertising / promoting using celebrities, and any other means.
Absolutely agree with you... passionate about Lotus, understand they need to modernise to make profit now and in to the future, but Bahar's strategy (still cant believe Swiss Tony or whatever his name is) will alienate clients that can make that profit for him in the West.... Bahar v Ron Dennis anyone? Who would you want to be associated with, via your purchase? (I know the maclaren needs a bit more development.... but still)I really hope that by 2014 the UK has these home grown supercars being built (partly) in Britain by (some) British people.
I think many moaners posting on here are actually Lotus fans that are p!ssed with Lotus / Bahr for the percieved waste of money and brand deflation in dodgy advertising / promoting using celebrities, and any other means.
He must be putting his chips on Brazil, India, China etc....
Anyone who knows me personally associates me with Lotus cars. They know my deep obsession with them and they always get excited when they see a Lotus on the road, they take a pic and send me a text saying "I just saw this and thought of you! Hope you like it!"
I have been obsessed with Lotus cars since I first laid eyes on a 1990 Esprit SE in white when I was 13years old. I even wrote a letter to them when I was 14 and sent it to their main HQ's in Hethel, Norwich Norfolk. I was sent a very nice letter back from Patrick Peal. We ended up being penpals throughout the years and he always said that if I ever make it out there he would gladly give me the grand tour of the factory. I was so excited and grateful for the offer. I have cousins in England who told me they are about 3.5hrs away from Lotus Cars HQ. I never did make it out there but still hold hope that I will one day.
With that said, nobody wants Lotus to succeed more than I do. I wish them the absolute best. HOWEVER, all negative connotations aside, I mean what I am about to say not from a demeaor of spitefulness, but of one of great concern; I really do not like the way Lotus is taking. I don't feel hopeful about the direction they are going with 100k plus cars. Though the new models are attractive in the styling dept, they look too generic imo, and they are much too similar looking to eachother.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future of Lotus. I fear we are going to see their demise. I hope and pray this is not the case, but I am not confident at all with what they are doing.
I am happy for them that they were granted this money. I wish them all the best.
I have been obsessed with Lotus cars since I first laid eyes on a 1990 Esprit SE in white when I was 13years old. I even wrote a letter to them when I was 14 and sent it to their main HQ's in Hethel, Norwich Norfolk. I was sent a very nice letter back from Patrick Peal. We ended up being penpals throughout the years and he always said that if I ever make it out there he would gladly give me the grand tour of the factory. I was so excited and grateful for the offer. I have cousins in England who told me they are about 3.5hrs away from Lotus Cars HQ. I never did make it out there but still hold hope that I will one day.
With that said, nobody wants Lotus to succeed more than I do. I wish them the absolute best. HOWEVER, all negative connotations aside, I mean what I am about to say not from a demeaor of spitefulness, but of one of great concern; I really do not like the way Lotus is taking. I don't feel hopeful about the direction they are going with 100k plus cars. Though the new models are attractive in the styling dept, they look too generic imo, and they are much too similar looking to eachother.
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried about the future of Lotus. I fear we are going to see their demise. I hope and pray this is not the case, but I am not confident at all with what they are doing.
I am happy for them that they were granted this money. I wish them all the best.
dandarez said:
Should have given it to Ginetta imo (still 'truly' British) not on a company that seems to have lost totally the aims of its creator.
No matter, Ginetta has proven they don't need it, exhibited by their first 2 new road cars in an age, the first the G40R getting the thumbs up by Autocar and the latest, the G60, putting more than one over the Evora this week in the same mag.
Just my bias opinion of course!
You've got to be kidding me right? That article was the biggest pile of sNo matter, Ginetta has proven they don't need it, exhibited by their first 2 new road cars in an age, the first the G40R getting the thumbs up by Autocar and the latest, the G60, putting more than one over the Evora this week in the same mag.
Just my bias opinion of course!
te Autocar ever did. They compared an Evora & R8 & GTR with a Ginetta-just-a-bit-more-than-a-kit-car and called it Britain's 911, said it was better because it was more hardcore and topped it off by saying that the cars all appealed to different people anyway! FWIW Colin Chapman advocated 'less is more' but this was never his golden rule for road cars and, excepting the 7, Lotus's were similar in weight to competitors. They were very definaltet not flyweight competitors. This 'less is more' thing has become an urban legend.
dandarez said:
Should have given it to Ginetta imo (still 'truly' British) not on a company that seems to have lost totally the aims of its creator.
No matter, Ginetta has proven they don't need it, exhibited by their first 2 new road cars in an age, the first the G40R getting the thumbs up by Autocar and the latest, the G60, putting more than one over the Evora this week in the same mag.
Just my bias opinion of course!
You should have mentioned it before:No matter, Ginetta has proven they don't need it, exhibited by their first 2 new road cars in an age, the first the G40R getting the thumbs up by Autocar and the latest, the G60, putting more than one over the Evora this week in the same mag.
Just my bias opinion of course!
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
I really think you need to get a new hobby
RTH said:
People would have treated this news very differently if there was a realistic plan in place for the company.
There is.All cars based on VVA - already proved on the Evora.
All cars to get new modular engine, either in V4, V6 or V8 form - already successfully rig-tested.
All cars to get new lightweight aluminium bodies - the last link in the chain really.
These cars have been planned to be easy to develop and build as a cohesive range from the start. It's far more realistic than any plans for Aston Martin's future growth, frankly, which seem to be 'keep fiddling with the DB9 and hope Jaguar keep supplying us with engines to put in a rival car that's looking increasingly overpriced and outgunned.'
And as for 'people won't pay that much for a Lotus' - well they paid comparable sums for Turbo Esprits and Excels in the Eighties, and they've got their name on two F1 teams, an Indycar team and a Le Mans team, and that sort of thing counts for a lot in these emerging markets.
We don't get Buick over here. In America they're largely tarted-up Vauxhalls with big price tags, and if they were introduced the refrain would be 'no-one in their right mind would buy a Buick.' However, in China, thanks to an excellent product launch strategy, they're seen as being as prestigious and desirable as BMW.
So, imagine an emerging market that's never had any supercars. Suddenly a multi-marque dealership lands on your doorstep selling Lamborghini, Ferrari, Lotus, Aston Martin, Maserati - etc. As far as you and the rest of the populace are concerned, they're all equals.
Also, given the passion that Senna inspires in Brazil, his name is most synonymous with Lotus and McLaren, not Ferrari. Expect to see Senna-inspired versions of both for the Brazilian market.
Junglehop said:
I really dont get all this anti Lotus sentiment. Just read through all the previous posts and most are negative. I dont really understand why? Bahar is not the most likeable individual but then again the CEO of BMW or Porsche may also be a prat but theres still not the same feeling.
Not realy. Norbert Reithofer keeps mostly to himself, is an engineer and clever business man. Whatever you think of the Mini and 1 series you can't argue with the results. I don't know anything about Martin Winterkorn, but Bernd Pischetsrieder (who has been CEO of both) is an engineer, car nut, business man and quite capable of some top class auto-mentalisum at times.Bahar on the other hand is a marketing man who likes to grandstand and wants only one thing. Money, and lost of it.
Info here on Evoras produced in 2010 and 2011 to date based on chassis nos because no hard figures have been released for public consumption.
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f170/sales-figures...
What ever way you look at it these are tiny numbers.
Swiss Tony talked about selling 4500 cars a year at the press conference and that was a new model range at 2 and 3 times the price.
They are basing all their hopes on exports, something Lotus have tried many many times right back to 1959 trying to sell Elites to USA it has never worked.
Now with Europe USA and Japan all seeing their people having to cut expenditure for the foreseeable future they would need even greater faith
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f170/sales-figures...
What ever way you look at it these are tiny numbers.
Swiss Tony talked about selling 4500 cars a year at the press conference and that was a new model range at 2 and 3 times the price.
They are basing all their hopes on exports, something Lotus have tried many many times right back to 1959 trying to sell Elites to USA it has never worked.
Now with Europe USA and Japan all seeing their people having to cut expenditure for the foreseeable future they would need even greater faith
PaulMoor said:
Junglehop said:
I really dont get all this anti Lotus sentiment. Just read through all the previous posts and most are negative. I dont really understand why? Bahar is not the most likeable individual but then again the CEO of BMW or Porsche may also be a prat but theres still not the same feeling.
Not realy. Norbert Reithofer keeps mostly to himself, is an engineer and clever business man. Whatever you think of the Mini and 1 series you can't argue with the results. I don't know anything about Martin Winterkorn, but Bernd Pischetsrieder (who has been CEO of both) is an engineer, car nut, business man and quite capable of some top class auto-mentalisum at times.Bahar on the other hand is a marketing man who likes to grandstand and wants only one thing. Money, and lost of it.
RTH said:
I
Swiss Tony talked about selling 4500 cars a year at the press conference and that was a new model range at 2 and 3 times the price.
They are basing all their hopes on exports, something Lotus have tried many many times right back to 1959 trying to sell Elites to USA it has never worked.
Now with Europe USA and Japan all seeing their people having to cut expenditure for the foreseeable future they would need even greater faith
TBH the overall market is far far bigger these days and Lotus is a tiny player. 4,500 isn't many at all. You have to put aside the 'old world' cars as the new ones will be on a totally different level.Swiss Tony talked about selling 4500 cars a year at the press conference and that was a new model range at 2 and 3 times the price.
They are basing all their hopes on exports, something Lotus have tried many many times right back to 1959 trying to sell Elites to USA it has never worked.
Now with Europe USA and Japan all seeing their people having to cut expenditure for the foreseeable future they would need even greater faith
Globalisation was never successful for Lotus in the past owing to a huge number of factors, not least quality, staff with the right skills, the knowledge to do this successfully etc. Totally different now.
Disappointed to see all of the bitter & snidey remarks from people who probably couldn't do any better
themselves. So Well Done Lotus! Well Done Proton! and well done The Government!
Perhaps we can now see the complete regeneration of Lotus, Caterham, CPP/Spyker/Zagato/Bowler,
Jaguar Land Rover, Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Morgan, TVR Power, Ricardo, McLaren Cars, Ascari,Ginetta and all of the F1 teams and tuners and other formulae manufacturers who do so much in keeping British manufacturing going and of course the British Components industry.
Apologies to those I have missed -sorry Bernie, who is one of the most important.
themselves. So Well Done Lotus! Well Done Proton! and well done The Government!
Perhaps we can now see the complete regeneration of Lotus, Caterham, CPP/Spyker/Zagato/Bowler,
Jaguar Land Rover, Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Morgan, TVR Power, Ricardo, McLaren Cars, Ascari,Ginetta and all of the F1 teams and tuners and other formulae manufacturers who do so much in keeping British manufacturing going and of course the British Components industry.
Apologies to those I have missed -sorry Bernie, who is one of the most important.
[quote=Twincam16]
So, imagine an emerging market that's never had any supercars. Suddenly a multi-marque dealership lands on your doorstep selling Lamborghini, Ferrari, Lotus, Aston Martin, Maserati - etc. As far as you and the rest of the populace are concerned, they're all equals.
quote]
A most keen observation and most likely to be where these cars are targetted. So, in a nutshell, if you had £50-£60k to spend on a car like this, would ou buy one ie not necessarily new but ex-demo etc ie versus a Porsche (Cyaman S 911) or 3-4 year old R8 or what...?
Sadly I dont have the £100k to spend that an earlier contributor does...and certainly wouldnt spend it on a Lotus...but that's what its all about...choice.
So, imagine an emerging market that's never had any supercars. Suddenly a multi-marque dealership lands on your doorstep selling Lamborghini, Ferrari, Lotus, Aston Martin, Maserati - etc. As far as you and the rest of the populace are concerned, they're all equals.
quote]
A most keen observation and most likely to be where these cars are targetted. So, in a nutshell, if you had £50-£60k to spend on a car like this, would ou buy one ie not necessarily new but ex-demo etc ie versus a Porsche (Cyaman S 911) or 3-4 year old R8 or what...?
Sadly I dont have the £100k to spend that an earlier contributor does...and certainly wouldnt spend it on a Lotus...but that's what its all about...choice.
Frimley111R said:
TBH the overall market is far far bigger these days and Lotus is a tiny player. 4,500 isn't many at all. You have to put aside the 'old world' cars as the new ones will be on a totally different level.
Globalisation was never successful for Lotus in the past owing to a huge number of factors, not least quality, staff with the right skills, the knowledge to do this successfully etc. Totally different now.
Where is the evidence that it is all totally different now?Globalisation was never successful for Lotus in the past owing to a huge number of factors, not least quality, staff with the right skills, the knowledge to do this successfully etc. Totally different now.
Currently sadly Lotus are having great difficulty finding customers in the sort of volume they need to get in to the black ( and I say this with regret as someone who has continuously owned at least one Lotus since 1975 and currently own an Esprit)
If you look on Pistonheads own classified there are 76 Evoras for sale the new cars are £70,000 the 2010 cars even with as low as 11000 miles 30 of them are under £40,000 several are £35,000, that is an awful lot of money to lose in little over a year.
The market tells the story about whether a product is successful.......And the plan from here is for a range vastly more expensive to buy. You cannot ever switch on reputations overnight.
I think they are pursuing a very high risk policy on vast borrowings. The company will survive there will always be someone to pick up the pieces. The brand and the history is highly regarded by the dedicated enthusiast. But they have no track record for high end luxury cars in the sort of numbers they say they will need. Emerging markets like China India etc those buyers are far more likely to want to be associated with established top end cars like Mercedes BMW and Porsche. What the new management are doing is a very large punt. I certainly do not want to see them go down, but am fearful this is the wrong strategy.
Bit of a piss take this. Okay it keeps jobs, but surly if an overseas investor (proton) puts it's money behind a company they take responsibility for it's finance and running? If it was british owned I could understand. All the growth fund business - there are huge numbers of small and niche businesses which could benefit from these handouts.
I can only wish them good luck, but as a small business I do find this slightly annoying, I mean Lotus are owned by a large, safe and stable company and lets face it if they went through someone will be in the wings to buy it asap.
Personally I would much rather the £10 million is divided up and invested into smaller business as either paying a bank debt off, or just a pure cash injection, Lotus wont proper up our economy they aren't owned by a British company, the money isn't really going back to the country/area, maybe that is just me but I feel £10 million hasn't been wasted, but hasn't been used to its full potential
Personally I would much rather the £10 million is divided up and invested into smaller business as either paying a bank debt off, or just a pure cash injection, Lotus wont proper up our economy they aren't owned by a British company, the money isn't really going back to the country/area, maybe that is just me but I feel £10 million hasn't been wasted, but hasn't been used to its full potential
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