RE: McLaren rolls out MP4-12C spec changes

[jtremlett]

PhillipM said:

The best bit is 99% of cars out there have multiple upgrades/tweaks and recalls through their life, and you never hear anything about it.

McLaren offers one upgrade/recall/whatever and you never hear the end of it (plus you get 4000x replies of 'the Ferrari is better' )

It seems remarkable the number of people who respond to threads like this either without having bothered to see what else has been said or perhaps just choosing to ignore it. McLaren delivered effectively unfinished cars to customers and they are trying to fix some of the problems. Some owners have long since got fed up with their treatment and got shot of their cars. This is not the first "upgrade/recall/whatever" for the 12C. It is the latest of several. This is not deserving of praise. This is McLaren trying to dig themselves out of a hole they have got themselves into. It is also nothing whatever to do with Ferrari or any other marque. It is about the promises McLaren made versus what they delivered. It may well be true that "99% of cars out there have multiple upgrades/tweaks and recalls through their life" but I cannot recall any that has had so many problems in so short a time (resulting in cessation of deliveries for several weeks) and given the price of the car and McLaren's pronouncements on how they were going to show everyone else the way that seems pretty poor to me. Most (not all) may be software related but I don't see that's terribly relevant. But it is true that I'm not a McLaren customer and some that are have been defending McLaren and some haven't. It is hard, though, to see how anyone could regard the whole saga as positive for McLaren how ever hard they may try to spin it.

Jonathan

[DeltaEvo2]

I am not at all surprised by the Macca debacle but I am surprised by the people who try to spin it around in McLaren's favour and this behaviour is beyond me! Talking on fanboysm!

Apple and McLaren should join forces...

Quote:"Nobody who has had to try to get their toy computers working in a business environment would agree with you on that. Hateful, unstable, bug ridden things. Pretty though.
The only thing that "just works" is the marketing."

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[BelfastBoy]

jtremlett said:

t seems remarkable the number of people who respond to threads like this either without having bothered to see what else has been said or perhaps just choosing to ignore it. McLaren delivered effectively unfinished cars to customers and they are trying to fix some of the problems. Some owners have long since got fed up with their treatment and got shot of their cars. This is not the first "upgrade/recall/whatever" for the 12C. It is the latest of several. This is not deserving of praise. This is McLaren trying to dig themselves out of a hole they have got themselves into. It is also nothing whatever to do with Ferrari or any other marque. It is about the promises McLaren made versus what they delivered. It may well be true that "99% of cars out there have multiple upgrades/tweaks and recalls through their life" but I cannot recall any that has had so many problems in so short a time (resulting in cessation of deliveries for several weeks) and given the price of the car and McLaren's pronouncements on how they were going to show everyone else the way that seems pretty poor to me. Most (not all) may be software related but I don't see that's terribly relevant. But it is true that I'm not a McLaren customer and some that are have been defending McLaren and some haven't. It is hard, though, to see how anyone could regard the whole saga as positive for McLaren how ever hard they may try to spin it.

Jonathan

Have to agree with everything you say Jonathan. Dragging Ferrari and Lamborghini into this argument to prove a point is totally irrelevant. McLaren's insanely ambitious / arrogant (delete as appropriate) pre-launch promises have come back to bite them big time, and now they're rightly trying to rectify the problems that result when you basically release unfinished vehicles to paying customers. If the tweaks result in a better, sportier, more 'emotional' car, then so much the better. But judging by some of the opinions posted in the thread in the FLMB forum, McLaren have alienated some of their most loyal customers.

[TonyHetherington]

Riggers said:

GFWilliams said:

I love the way that there has been so much fuss about the 12C delays etc. People don't seem to notice that the Aventador has had serious delays too...

Aye, but they're Italian - we kind of expect it... [/tongue in cheek mode]

I don't know a great deal about it, but I understood those are delays. Something which the McLaren (in hindsight) should have had, but didn't.

There's a key difference in sending out a car before they should, and holding it back. Some of the things McLaren have changed because of feedback from journalists/customers - excellent. But other things, like delivering a car with no radio/sound system ready, was their choice.

They took the gamble, all for very valid reasons I'm sure, and unfortunately it didn't quite pay off and things didn't quite go to plan. They're sorting it (which although very good is nevertheless utterly expected) and hopefully it won't tarnish their reputation too much.

Will it stop people wanting to be the first on the list for their hyper car?

[AdamPT]

I'm struggling to understand the vitriol this thread has caused. McLaren are to be applauded for trying to make their product better, but I don't see why people need to draw comparisons with other manufacturers as its some sort of 'my willy is bigger than yours' contest. The reality is whatever hyper car you prefer, they will all scare the pants off you, handle amazingly and be well beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of owners. Its about what you prefer, Italian, British or German. None will disappoint, and if its really that important which one goes to 60mph 0.01 sec quicker, I do pity your wives/husbands/partners/friends.....for me, driving a car like this is about the tactile and visual pleasure that I get, not which gets round the 'ring' just that little bit quicker....

[PaulK]

AdamPT said:

I'm struggling to understand the vitriol this thread has caused. McLaren are to be applauded for trying to make their product better, but I don't see why people need to draw comparisons with other manufacturers as its some sort of 'my willy is bigger than yours' contest. The reality is whatever hyper car you prefer, they will all scare the pants off you, handle amazingly and be well beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of owners. Its about what you prefer, Italian, British or German. None will disappoint, and if its really that important which one goes to 60mph 0.01 sec quicker, I do pity your wives/husbands/partners/friends.....for me, driving a car like this is about the tactile and visual pleasure that I get, not which gets round the 'ring' just that little bit quicker....

Could not have put it better myself

[TVRWannabee]

AdamPT said:

I'm struggling to understand the vitriol this thread has caused. McLaren are to be applauded for trying to make their product better, but I don't see why people need to draw comparisons with other manufacturers as its some sort of 'my willy is bigger than yours' contest. The reality is whatever hyper car you prefer, they will all scare the pants off you, handle amazingly and be well beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of owners. Its about what you prefer, Italian, British or German. None will disappoint, and if its really that important which one goes to 60mph 0.01 sec quicker, I do pity your wives/husbands/partners/friends.....for me, driving a car like this is about the tactile and visual pleasure that I get, not which gets round the 'ring' just that little bit quicker....

Nicely put.

It's not a case of being a Ferrari supporter or a McLaren supporter, in my view it's about keeping an open mind and appreciating the products the companies produce. Right now I can't afford either car so my choice is further down the scale and in my experience there are few 'bad' cars out there; each vehicle is aimed for a different market.

If the car is not aimed at you, you probably wouldn't appreciate it. Buy something else. If you can't buy it, then what's the problem?

Incidentally, I'm not sure hypercars/supercars were ever particularly reliable and certainly many new cars have had hiccups. So why is the McLaren any different?

Both Ferraris and the McLaren are gorgeous in the flesh - and that's all we need to know until we want to buy one. Then it is down to personal preference and bog-all to do with an extra 0.00000000001 second on the 0-60 time or indeed past hiccups.

BTW it would be interesting to hear from real owners of the cars - if we can catch them! I suspect they are too busy hooning around the countryside to appear on here.

Edited by TVRWannabee on Friday 11th November 13:29

[declasm]

Think I saw them testing in Brookwood last week:

Edited by declasm on Friday 11th November 14:17

[lauda]

I think regardless of where you stand on prefering the 12C or 458, or whether you couldn't really care less, there's no doubt that the problems with the 12C have been hugely embarrasing for McLaren and I would imagine that there are some very contrite employees at Woking who won't be getting a Christmas card from Ron this year. Trying to spin the situation into anything positive is pretty deluded although I do think that McLaren deserve credit for actually holding their hands up and admitting that there are problems. The first step to solving any problem is to first admit that you have one.

I guess part of the reason this is a particularly difficult issue is that McLaren pride themselves on the quality of the engineering and build of their products. The quality of the ownership experience was sold to potential buyers as a key differentiator from the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini so the fact that the experience for some owners has failed to even live up to what one would have expected from the established brands must have left a bitter taste in the mouth and is highly embarrasing for McLaren.

As a fan of McLaren, albiet based more on respect for the marque and its achievements than a real 'love' (it's difficult to love any organisation as sterile as McLaren, regardless of how good its output is), I really hope they sort it out. I was really pleased when the initial press reports of the car were so positive, only for there to have been the subsequent trickle of negative coverage ever since. But at the same time, they should probably be cut a little bit of slack since they are completely new to volume car manufacture. I guess their real mistake was setting expectations so high to start with that the best result would only be to have matched them and the much more likely result was that they would fail to deliver, at least in the early days.

[MoBeanz]

Just to add fuel to the fire (pun intended)... it's been reported that the ball of flames featured in this video is/was an FF on a test drive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_H1sXjtSZU

May the 'my supercar is more reliable than your supercar' debate rage on... endlessly... forever and ever... without conclusion... ... ...

[British Beef]

This is tricky to call, but I think Mclaren's ambition or over ambition has been its undoing with this.

I think in this price category cars need to be perfect 1st time. Very few are, partly as a consequence of the increasing complexity and "1st time in a production car" that exists with cars like this.

I am surpsised Mclaren did not take a (financial) hit and delay this cars debut further, to make sure it was perfect when the first customers received it, particularly with the bold claims and objectives set out for this car.

The only plus to come out of this is that most the gremlins appear software related and Mclaren are taking a (reactive) approach to fixing them.

[ZeeTacoe]

Oelholm said:

ZeeTacoe said:

Do you have trouble reading or just comprehension?

- He's pointing out that your qouting got mixed up with your comment - no trouble reading og comprehendig. I found it pretty funny as well

Now children guess which post is mine

[AyBee]

British Beef said:

This is tricky to call, but I think Mclaren's ambition or over ambition has been its undoing with this.

I think in this price category cars need to be perfect 1st time. Very few are, partly as a consequence of the increasing complexity and "1st time in a production car" that exists with cars like this.

I am surpsised Mclaren did not take a (financial) hit and delay this cars debut further, to make sure it was perfect when the first customers received it, particularly with the bold claims and objectives set out for this car.

The only plus to come out of this is that most the gremlins appear software related and Mclaren are taking a (reactive) approach to fixing them.

But whichever way you look at it, they could have sat back and said "that's the car we produced, you bought it" and not do anything (apart from committing suicide in respect of future cars they are to bring out), but what they have done is admit that the initial customer cars had some faults, some owners aren't 100% happy and so they're going to fork out to make them happy. To be applauded IMO and I'm sure they'll learn from it for future releases but this fits perfectly in the McLaren ethos of being clinical in everything they do!

[will261058]

Al 450 said:

McLarens are supposed to be fast but dull, Ferraris are supposed to be red, noisy and sometimes on fire, Porsches are supposed to all look the same... normal business is it not? :tongueincheek:

When you say Mclarens are dull, what exactly are you using for your benchmark?

[P7ULG]

Ricky Cox said:

version 8.2, is this the Apple MP4-12C? Do you need to take it do a dealer or just connect it to iTunes?

Serious note; I agree that its great to see a manufacturer taking even their already-sold cars so seriously, hope it catches on!

As long as they are not going to bring a new version out just after everyone has just bought the last one.

Seems a lot of money for a work in progress car with the buyers doing the development.

[doublelink]

The Jolly Todger said:

Not sure we need people like you on this forum.

Do you seriously think a recall to sort out cars that are catching fire is the same thing as what Mclaren are doing here?

Thanks JT. Here! here! Utter nonsense. I have written before in favour of the 12C but admittedly only after being driven, (no pun intended), to do so after reading that sort of tripe! Perhaps there should be an age limit on this Forum? I have driven the 12c and the 458, which thankfully did not combust, and the 12C, which was as tight as a drum, whereas the Italia did not deliver IMHO the same confidence inspiring drive at the wheel.

[TonyHetherington]

declasm said:

Think I saw them testing in Brookwood last week:

Is that not just delivering a new car - the white bits look like protection?

[P7ULG]

TonyHetherington said:

Is that not just delivering a new car - the white bits look like protection?

Or possibly the blue bits

[MrDarkBlack]

galvatronscannon said:

erm, recall to sort the going on fire problem? The amount of Mclaren nut hugery on here is quite funny at times.

It's just as well it's not a spoken word forum, you'd never be able to understand anyone as it'd all sound like "flllgarbeleghhgarblefellaaagli" as everyone tried to speak with Ron's balls in their mouths.

I see you've only been posting for a month, but it only takes a few days to come to the above conclusion.


I agree with what's been said, that it's silly to compare the McLaren and Ferrari, for most of the reasons listed above. But who started this?

wiki said:

"The McLaren's final design was unveiled on 8 September 2009, and it is set to be launched in 2011."

wiki said:

The 458 Italia was officially unveiled at the 2009 Frankfurt Motor Show on 15 September 2009.

I remember at the time, Ferrari had announced when the 458 was being unveiled and McLaren rushed things, to launch their design first...even though the car was only set for launch in 2011.. I think they should have concentrated on what they were doing, and not what their competitor was, and then maybe, they wouldn't have to do these "upgrades".

[Ricky Cox]

ZeeTacoe said:

Oelholm said:

ZeeTacoe said:

Do you have trouble reading or just comprehension?

- He's pointing out that your qouting got mixed up with your comment - no trouble reading og comprehendig. I found it pretty funny as well

Now children guess which post is mine

Congrats, your quoting ability is second to none, your comprehension of my point; rather less commendable. I can only hang my head in shame over the quality of my quote; however, I do have the excuse that I was making a phone call on my iPhone 4s at the time