RE: How Do You Solve a Problem Like Sebastien?
Discussion
m8rky said:
300bhp/ton said:
I often wonder how Leob would fare if he was competing against past greats such as:
Richard Burns
Marcus Grönholm
Tommi Mäkinen
Colin McRae
Juha Kankkunen
Carlos Sainz
Not wanting to take anything away from Leob, or the other drivers. But for the past 10 years there really hasn't been anyone I'd call that great to challenge him.
Solberg was only ever an also ran when the names above where competing, and from what I can tell the rest of the current field is much more on par with Solberg, while Leob seems to be at the level of the past greats.
The answer is he beat Mcrae,Sainz and Gronholm as he did compete against them.Richard Burns
Marcus Grönholm
Tommi Mäkinen
Colin McRae
Juha Kankkunen
Carlos Sainz
Not wanting to take anything away from Leob, or the other drivers. But for the past 10 years there really hasn't been anyone I'd call that great to challenge him.
Solberg was only ever an also ran when the names above where competing, and from what I can tell the rest of the current field is much more on par with Solberg, while Leob seems to be at the level of the past greats.
300bhp/ton said:
m8rky said:
300bhp/ton said:
I often wonder how Leob would fare if he was competing against past greats such as:
Richard Burns
Marcus Grönholm
Tommi Mäkinen
Colin McRae
Juha Kankkunen
Carlos Sainz
Not wanting to take anything away from Leob, or the other drivers. But for the past 10 years there really hasn't been anyone I'd call that great to challenge him.
Solberg was only ever an also ran when the names above where competing, and from what I can tell the rest of the current field is much more on par with Solberg, while Leob seems to be at the level of the past greats.
The answer is he beat Mcrae,Sainz and Gronholm as he did compete against them.Richard Burns
Marcus Grönholm
Tommi Mäkinen
Colin McRae
Juha Kankkunen
Carlos Sainz
Not wanting to take anything away from Leob, or the other drivers. But for the past 10 years there really hasn't been anyone I'd call that great to challenge him.
Solberg was only ever an also ran when the names above where competing, and from what I can tell the rest of the current field is much more on par with Solberg, while Leob seems to be at the level of the past greats.
firebird350 said:
Is it possible that the modern WRC with its homogenised format is failing to 'push' either man or machine to and/or beyond their limits? Health & Safety considerations would seem to rule out setting challenging physical tests of stamina and endurance with regard to the driver and co-driver while rally car reliability seems almost to match current F1 levels - which, historically, was never the case in either discipline.
There seemed something heroic in rallying exploits and feats of yesteryear when no one seemed to know quite where the performance limits of both car and driver lay. Predictability was an alien term and there was no such thing (ever!) as a guaranteed result - a sure thing, if you will. However, that's where we seem to find ourselves today. If any driver can operate entirely within his own comfort zone whilst engaging in top-flight competition then I would venture to say there is something wrong with that sport.
I fear that this lack of 'pushing the performance envelope' (in all its forms) may, in a strange way, be crushing our spirit. In a wider arena, I feel it manifests itself, for example, in retiring Concorde before it could be superceded, retiring the space shuttle (before it could be superceded) and retiring the Harrier Jump Jet (ditto).
Are we losing something along the way here? Or, is it just me? Am I the only one losing it?!!!
You get it! I get it, some others do too. Behave as an individual is my solution.There seemed something heroic in rallying exploits and feats of yesteryear when no one seemed to know quite where the performance limits of both car and driver lay. Predictability was an alien term and there was no such thing (ever!) as a guaranteed result - a sure thing, if you will. However, that's where we seem to find ourselves today. If any driver can operate entirely within his own comfort zone whilst engaging in top-flight competition then I would venture to say there is something wrong with that sport.
I fear that this lack of 'pushing the performance envelope' (in all its forms) may, in a strange way, be crushing our spirit. In a wider arena, I feel it manifests itself, for example, in retiring Concorde before it could be superceded, retiring the space shuttle (before it could be superceded) and retiring the Harrier Jump Jet (ditto).
Are we losing something along the way here? Or, is it just me? Am I the only one losing it?!!!
firebird350 said:
Is it possible that the modern WRC with its homogenised format is failing to 'push' either man or machine to and/or beyond their limits? Health & Safety considerations would seem to rule out setting challenging physical tests of stamina and endurance with regard to the driver and co-driver while rally car reliability seems almost to match current F1 levels - which, historically, was never the case in either discipline.
There seemed something heroic in rallying exploits and feats of yesteryear when no one seemed to know quite where the performance limits of both car and driver lay. Predictability was an alien term and there was no such thing (ever!) as a guaranteed result - a sure thing, if you will. However, that's where we seem to find ourselves today. If any driver can operate entirely within his own comfort zone whilst engaging in top-flight competition then I would venture to say there is something wrong with that sport.
I fear that this lack of 'pushing the performance envelope' (in all its forms) may, in a strange way, be crushing our spirit. In a wider arena, I feel it manifests itself, for example, in retiring Concorde before it could be superceded, retiring the space shuttle (before it could be superceded) and retiring the Harrier Jump Jet (ditto).
Are we losing something along the way here? Or, is it just me? Am I the only one losing it?!!!
PS: No disrespect to Sebastien Loeb btw. He's the one with the eighth WRC and an absolutely outstanding run of success. But shouldn't we strive to make him work harder for it?!
Do you even watch rallying?There seemed something heroic in rallying exploits and feats of yesteryear when no one seemed to know quite where the performance limits of both car and driver lay. Predictability was an alien term and there was no such thing (ever!) as a guaranteed result - a sure thing, if you will. However, that's where we seem to find ourselves today. If any driver can operate entirely within his own comfort zone whilst engaging in top-flight competition then I would venture to say there is something wrong with that sport.
I fear that this lack of 'pushing the performance envelope' (in all its forms) may, in a strange way, be crushing our spirit. In a wider arena, I feel it manifests itself, for example, in retiring Concorde before it could be superceded, retiring the space shuttle (before it could be superceded) and retiring the Harrier Jump Jet (ditto).
Are we losing something along the way here? Or, is it just me? Am I the only one losing it?!!!
PS: No disrespect to Sebastien Loeb btw. He's the one with the eighth WRC and an absolutely outstanding run of success. But shouldn't we strive to make him work harder for it?!
The drivers have had to push harder than ever this year, often with only tenths of a second between them at the end of a stage. There have been plenty of mistakes and mechanical failures (which you would know had you even watched the last rally) which have happened because the drivers are pushing so hard.
I don't know what the rest of that waffle was about. Concorde was superseded by the internet, the shuttle was always more costly than disposable rockets and the harrier replaced by the ability to fire much more heavily armed planes off a short runway (and the F-35B).
Racing and rallying like everything else is subject to constant change, and it is natural for each of us to live in the past to some degree. This crucially also reflects some of our own passion probably from a time in our own lives when our own curiosity and experience of 'newness' was at its height, which coincides with a given time in rallying or racing. In otherwords change that occurred during a previous era which we at the time found utterly compelling. During the sideways era I can remember older rally fans lamenting the passing of the Saab and mini era's. Personally for me the likes of Russell Brookes/Roger Clark British Championship on Saturday afternoon BBC TV was the most enjoyable period of rallying.
Loeb is a driving genius for this 'segment of change' there are many who will remember the Citroen years as a high water of rallying and cant understand why others cant see it, I can imagine that the latest cars/technology are hugely interesting for the gadget generation?
Racing is a collection of segments of change in continuous flux.
If rallying has a problem its the FIA and its life blood; sponsorship. In otherwords TV, and unfortunately rallying does not fit well into the modern TV schedules. Also TV has lost interest in sport.....it needs major events like wimbledon or big viewer interest which means it must be easy for Joe Public to understand and rallying is just too complicated. Therefore the FIA has no idea how to manage it, so now seems to be trying to ignore Rallying.
Loeb is a driving genius for this 'segment of change' there are many who will remember the Citroen years as a high water of rallying and cant understand why others cant see it, I can imagine that the latest cars/technology are hugely interesting for the gadget generation?
Racing is a collection of segments of change in continuous flux.
If rallying has a problem its the FIA and its life blood; sponsorship. In otherwords TV, and unfortunately rallying does not fit well into the modern TV schedules. Also TV has lost interest in sport.....it needs major events like wimbledon or big viewer interest which means it must be easy for Joe Public to understand and rallying is just too complicated. Therefore the FIA has no idea how to manage it, so now seems to be trying to ignore Rallying.
Ipelm said:
Loeb is a driving genius for this 'segment of change' there are many who will remember the Citroen years as a high water of rallying and cant understand why others cant see it, I can imagine that the latest cars/technology are hugely interesting for the gadget generation?
Racing is a collection of segments of change in continuous flux.
If rallying has a problem its the FIA and its life blood; sponsorship. In otherwords TV, and unfortunately rallying does not fit well into the modern TV schedules. Also TV has lost interest in sport.....it needs major events like wimbledon or big viewer interest which means it must be easy for Joe Public to understand and rallying is just too complicated. Therefore the FIA has no idea how to manage it, so now seems to be trying to ignore Rallying.
I suppose i am of the 'gadget generation', it would be intresting if it had any coverage, we baught ESPN to watch the WRC this year and really, im not sure it was worth it.Racing is a collection of segments of change in continuous flux.
If rallying has a problem its the FIA and its life blood; sponsorship. In otherwords TV, and unfortunately rallying does not fit well into the modern TV schedules. Also TV has lost interest in sport.....it needs major events like wimbledon or big viewer interest which means it must be easy for Joe Public to understand and rallying is just too complicated. Therefore the FIA has no idea how to manage it, so now seems to be trying to ignore Rallying.
Half hour shows with very little in the way of in stage clips, mostly people pulling off the start line or pulling up to the stop line then a quick interview. s
t onboard camera placement, 90% of the time no telemetary so no idea what speed they're doing. Incorrect information about incidents and mechanical failures but worst of all a complete inability to convey the atmosphere of being at a live rally into the show.I could go on but cant be arsed.
Yes I notice that Eurosports coverage online of the IRC has diminished this year, which is a pity because I really enjoyed last seasons coverage. I can see however that editors and producers of all sports might struggle with rallying. To do it properly requires a lot of resources. (long stages and multi classes) Like you (I guess) I miss the longer format events and night stages. The Monte on the IRC has evening racing and it is really good.
Ultimately we can only hope that someone with some influence can perhaps produce a 24 hour event consisting of easily covered stages, including during the night. However Rallying mainly works as highlights package but you need live racing to keep everyone happy, especially the sponsors so I have to admit that I dont have the answers!!
Ultimately we can only hope that someone with some influence can perhaps produce a 24 hour event consisting of easily covered stages, including during the night. However Rallying mainly works as highlights package but you need live racing to keep everyone happy, especially the sponsors so I have to admit that I dont have the answers!!
I miss night stages too.
Great article, really good.
I think it hits the nail on the head. Loeb has a mechanical accuracy to his driving the others don't have. And he is utterly unflappable, just emotionless on the stage. He never seems red-misted, just measured and analytical. I think it does illustrate the sport becoming less interesting though. The cars just don't excite me that much anymore. I loved the late 80's and early 90's, when everyone would have a go (like Ford rallying a RWD Sierra Cosworth on all stages). Then the 90's developed into an age of technical mastery, but the driving was still full of flair.
I agree with the comments about the competition; at the top level it isn't as strong as it was. Loeb would no doubt still win out in any event, but aside from wathcing Loeb streak to another victory there is little be excited about. I'd like to see the cars go back to proper road-going versions, stripped and adapted for rallying like the cars were in the glory days. You only have to look at the bloated, lardy excess of a road going mk2 Focus RS to see it's a million miles away from the car Ford were rallying under the same name.
Great article, really good.
I think it hits the nail on the head. Loeb has a mechanical accuracy to his driving the others don't have. And he is utterly unflappable, just emotionless on the stage. He never seems red-misted, just measured and analytical. I think it does illustrate the sport becoming less interesting though. The cars just don't excite me that much anymore. I loved the late 80's and early 90's, when everyone would have a go (like Ford rallying a RWD Sierra Cosworth on all stages). Then the 90's developed into an age of technical mastery, but the driving was still full of flair.
I agree with the comments about the competition; at the top level it isn't as strong as it was. Loeb would no doubt still win out in any event, but aside from wathcing Loeb streak to another victory there is little be excited about. I'd like to see the cars go back to proper road-going versions, stripped and adapted for rallying like the cars were in the glory days. You only have to look at the bloated, lardy excess of a road going mk2 Focus RS to see it's a million miles away from the car Ford were rallying under the same name.
DJRC said:
When did Richard Burns become a rallying great?? Fairly handy yes, great? Knock it off. Munari or Henri he aint.
Bit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
2001. In a totally different era to the guys you mentioned as well. The guy is a legend for many reasons.Bit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
On the subject of Loeb, he's the best driver in the best car ran by the best team. Simple as that.
P I Staker said:
I suppose i am of the 'gadget generation', it would be intresting if it had any coverage, we baught ESPN to watch the WRC this year and really, im not sure it was worth it.
Half hour shows with very little in the way of in stage clips, mostly people pulling off the start line or pulling up to the stop line then a quick interview. st onboard camera placement, 90% of the time no telemetary so no idea what speed they're doing. Incorrect information about incidents and mechanical failures but worst of all a complete inability to convey the atmosphere of being at a live rally into the show.
I could go on but cant be arsed.
Half an hour per day is pretty good. The ITV and then Dave would show 45 minutes per weekend (20 of those being celebrity sHalf hour shows with very little in the way of in stage clips, mostly people pulling off the start line or pulling up to the stop line then a quick interview. s
t onboard camera placement, 90% of the time no telemetary so no idea what speed they're doing. Incorrect information about incidents and mechanical failures but worst of all a complete inability to convey the atmosphere of being at a live rally into the show.I could go on but cant be arsed.
t on Dave). I've been watching it online though, so I've been skipping the talky bits 
Ved said:
DJRC said:
When did Richard Burns become a rallying great?? Fairly handy yes, great? Knock it off. Munari or Henri he aint.
Bit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
2001. In a totally different era to the guys you mentioned as well. The guy is a legend for many reasons.Bit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
On the subject of Loeb, he's the best driver in the best car ran by the best team. Simple as that.
This might be a stupid question, but wouldn't rallying be more interesting if the teams weren't told what the route was going to be until the event started? or if they were only allowed one pass a couple of hours before they ran? or if they weren't allowed co-drivers?
It seems to me that having the opportunity to plan ahead rather defeats the purpose of seeing who can get from point A to point B in the shortest possible time. Why go on a trip if you already know what the destination is like?
It seems to me that having the opportunity to plan ahead rather defeats the purpose of seeing who can get from point A to point B in the shortest possible time. Why go on a trip if you already know what the destination is like?
Ftumpch said:
This might be a stupid question, but wouldn't rallying be more interesting if the teams weren't told what the route was going to be until the event started? or if they were only allowed one pass a couple of hours before they ran? or if they weren't allowed co-drivers?
Classic rallying is often run without pace notes and is always good fun to watch. Helps that most of them are out there mainly to have fun as well!
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