RE: How Do You Solve a Problem Like Sebastien?
Discussion
jetpilot said:
I have not driven one, but does the new DS3 racing not compare to the likes of the VTR/VTS?
But hear hear, would love to see a proper rally derivative!
As for ford, the glory days of proper RS (rally sport) are long gone, which is a great shame if you ask me! Bring back the RS Cosworth variants please!!
The DS3 does not compete for me. It's too tall and looks like an MPV and from hearing reports, no wild drive. I'm thinking of that stripped down minimalist aesthetic, mated to a chassis that drives very well. the DS3 Racing seems to be 'chuck a bit of orange plastic here and we're done', which is a criminal waste of Citroen's talents. But hear hear, would love to see a proper rally derivative!
As for ford, the glory days of proper RS (rally sport) are long gone, which is a great shame if you ask me! Bring back the RS Cosworth variants please!!
And the less said about the RS badge these days, the better. That once coveted badge, the preserve of the great Cosworths, Escorts and Fiestas of the day is now plastered onto the overweight FWD Focus. Good grief.
MonkeyHanger said:
Twincam16 said:
There are a number of simple things that need doing to get rallying out of its current rut:
-Introduce an anything-goes class in the spirit of Group B. Maybe they wouldn't run for championship points, maybe they'd only qualify for use on certain stages (I guess the RGT class might work like this), but if you had cars like the Lotus Exige, Aston Martin Vantage and Porsche 911 pushed to the forefront it might generate a bit more interest. Group B's problems lay in a mixture of crowd-control and tyre technology as much as anything, and we've solved both those problems now.
The Crowds have gone away because Group B went away. Bring back "Group B", the crowds will return and cars will start coming back to service with fingers in the radiator grilles again...As for a special non-points scoring class, why would anyone bother to enter. There's nothing in it for them.-Introduce an anything-goes class in the spirit of Group B. Maybe they wouldn't run for championship points, maybe they'd only qualify for use on certain stages (I guess the RGT class might work like this), but if you had cars like the Lotus Exige, Aston Martin Vantage and Porsche 911 pushed to the forefront it might generate a bit more interest. Group B's problems lay in a mixture of crowd-control and tyre technology as much as anything, and we've solved both those problems now.
Twincam16 said:
-More variety of stages. Nearly every rally I see coverage of seems to be a tarmac or forest gravel stage. Bring back night rallying, bring back snow stages, bring back genuinely picturesque scenery - for me an iconic rallying image is the shadow of a TV helicopter on the Saharan sand, and a Peugeot 205 T16 high-tailing a mile of dust behind it.
The WRC returns to the Monte in January. If we don't see snow then i doubt we'll see it at most other events. As far as i know even the FIA can't fix the weather yet. As for Picturesque scenery the current events have it by the bucketload, but you don't get to see much of it from a constant stream of in-car footage.Twincam16 said:
-Terrestrial TV coverage. Putting it on a satellite channel reduces it to the level of a niche sport like ice hockey or squash. Unlike those, this is a sport that used to enjoy primetime TV slots and is emulated by kids with games consoles the world over. It's also one of the few motorsports that can help sell fairly 'ordinary' road cars. With that in mind, I reckon ITV4 could run a rallying show on Sundays when they're not covering the BTCC - they could do all the classes in the same all-day format and it'd attract the same amount of attention without getting in the way of ITV1's primetime schedules. I reckon the same presenting team could cover it to be honest. The single-burst nature of the stages would work well with the need for ad breaks. The BTCC coverage is second only to the BBC's F1 programmes IMO.
Comparing circuit racing coverage to the effort needed for a Stage Rally is ridiculous. ITV will show up at a typical UK Circuit with a dozen or so fixed cameras and a couple of mobiles. Park the Broadcast Trucks in the Paddock and they're good to go (slightly simplified)Even if you went for half a dozen cameras per Rally stage plus a Helicopter the cost would be prohibitive. Anyone who has watched Eurosport's Live IRC coverage will know it is superb when the Heli-cam is up, but if it goes tech or they hit bad weather, you get the start, finish and not much else in between. An afternoon of that would have viewers switching off in droves.
WRC Sweden has always been a snow rally. If TC16 actually watched rallying he'd know this.
The BBC Wales' coverage of RallyGB is pretty good despite the low budget, and ESPN's shows are far better than the Dave/ITV efforts. If TC16 actually watched rallying he'd know this.
Bring back homogolation. The WRC has become too much like formula 1. Boring and irrelevant. I used to love rallying when you could see Escort Cosworths, Celica GT4s and trick Subarus (okay Subaru and Mitsubishi are the exception(al) to the rule) on the road; now however the nearest thing to this years winning car is a chav'd up handbag on wheels with an orange roof. 
All credit to Sebastien for winning but I find the Group N cars a lot more interesting these days.
All credit to Sebastien for winning but I find the Group N cars a lot more interesting these days.
Liquid Knight said:
Bring back homogolation. The WRC has become too much like formula 1. Boring and irrelevant. I used to love rallying when you could see Escort Cosworths, Celica GT4s and trick Subarus (okay Subaru and Mitsubishi are the exception(al) to the rule) on the road; now however the nearest thing to this years winning car is a chav'd up handbag on wheels with an orange roof.
All credit to Sebastien for winning but I find the Group N cars a lot more interesting these days.
Who's going to build these homologation specials because it won't be the manufacturers, they'll just leave.All credit to Sebastien for winning but I find the Group N cars a lot more interesting these days.
EDLT said:
Who's going to build these homologation specials because it won't be the manufacturers, they'll just leave.
I imagine that would almost definatly be the case but i can understand why, on the face of it, it would be a good thing to bring back.It is a shame they're all shopping cars now, when i watched Richard Burns going through the stages in the Subaru i would sit back and think 'I want one of them'. Now when i watch Mikko Hirvonen in his Fiesta i think 'Thats a cool car, shame i cant actually get one'.
The current WRC cars look good, but i cant go to the local dealer and order a road version which is a shame.
DJRC said:
When did Richard Burns become a rallying great?? Fairly handy yes, great? Knock it off. Munari or Henri he aint.
Bit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
dear me what a truly ignorant comment. Not world champion by accidentBit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
zeb said:
dear me what a truly ignorant comment. Not world champion by accident
Technically speaking Burns was the World Champion in the end DUE to an accident. If McRae hadn't been driving like a loon in Wales 2001 and binned it, he'd have won the title that year. (Thats not to take anything away from Burns Championship.
)EDLT said:
MonkeyHanger said:
Twincam16 said:
There are a number of simple things that need doing to get rallying out of its current rut:
-Introduce an anything-goes class in the spirit of Group B. Maybe they wouldn't run for championship points, maybe they'd only qualify for use on certain stages (I guess the RGT class might work like this), but if you had cars like the Lotus Exige, Aston Martin Vantage and Porsche 911 pushed to the forefront it might generate a bit more interest. Group B's problems lay in a mixture of crowd-control and tyre technology as much as anything, and we've solved both those problems now.
The Crowds have gone away because Group B went away. Bring back "Group B", the crowds will return and cars will start coming back to service with fingers in the radiator grilles again...As for a special non-points scoring class, why would anyone bother to enter. There's nothing in it for them.-Introduce an anything-goes class in the spirit of Group B. Maybe they wouldn't run for championship points, maybe they'd only qualify for use on certain stages (I guess the RGT class might work like this), but if you had cars like the Lotus Exige, Aston Martin Vantage and Porsche 911 pushed to the forefront it might generate a bit more interest. Group B's problems lay in a mixture of crowd-control and tyre technology as much as anything, and we've solved both those problems now.
Twincam16 said:
-More variety of stages. Nearly every rally I see coverage of seems to be a tarmac or forest gravel stage. Bring back night rallying, bring back snow stages, bring back genuinely picturesque scenery - for me an iconic rallying image is the shadow of a TV helicopter on the Saharan sand, and a Peugeot 205 T16 high-tailing a mile of dust behind it.
The WRC returns to the Monte in January. If we don't see snow then i doubt we'll see it at most other events. As far as i know even the FIA can't fix the weather yet. As for Picturesque scenery the current events have it by the bucketload, but you don't get to see much of it from a constant stream of in-car footage.Twincam16 said:
-Terrestrial TV coverage. Putting it on a satellite channel reduces it to the level of a niche sport like ice hockey or squash. Unlike those, this is a sport that used to enjoy primetime TV slots and is emulated by kids with games consoles the world over. It's also one of the few motorsports that can help sell fairly 'ordinary' road cars. With that in mind, I reckon ITV4 could run a rallying show on Sundays when they're not covering the BTCC - they could do all the classes in the same all-day format and it'd attract the same amount of attention without getting in the way of ITV1's primetime schedules. I reckon the same presenting team could cover it to be honest. The single-burst nature of the stages would work well with the need for ad breaks. The BTCC coverage is second only to the BBC's F1 programmes IMO.
Comparing circuit racing coverage to the effort needed for a Stage Rally is ridiculous. ITV will show up at a typical UK Circuit with a dozen or so fixed cameras and a couple of mobiles. Park the Broadcast Trucks in the Paddock and they're good to go (slightly simplified)Even if you went for half a dozen cameras per Rally stage plus a Helicopter the cost would be prohibitive. Anyone who has watched Eurosport's Live IRC coverage will know it is superb when the Heli-cam is up, but if it goes tech or they hit bad weather, you get the start, finish and not much else in between. An afternoon of that would have viewers switching off in droves.
WRC Sweden has always been a snow rally. If TC16 actually watched rallying he'd know this.
The BBC Wales' coverage of RallyGB is pretty good despite the low budget, and ESPN's shows are far better than the Dave/ITV efforts. If TC16 actually watched rallying he'd know this.
M
tbtstt said:
zeb said:
dear me what a truly ignorant comment. Not world champion by accident
Technically speaking Burns was the World Champion in the end DUE to an accident. If McRae hadn't been driving like a loon in Wales 2001 and binned it, he'd have won the title that year. (Thats not to take anything away from Burns Championship.
)
Gorbyrev said:
P I Staker said:
I wish they had made a road going version of the WRC Xsara. The VTS is all very good, but i want a 300bhp 4wd Subaru killer.
Absolutely - Citroen's total failure to produce a road car series that built on the strengths of Loeb's car is baffling beyond belief. How many STIs and Evos have been snapped up during Loeb's untouchable years?http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/12/francois-deleco...
Listen to an ex WRC driver view on the WRC.
He wanted to enter a Porsche GT3 but..........
Listen to an ex WRC driver view on the WRC.
He wanted to enter a Porsche GT3 but..........
ELUSIVEJIM said:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/12/francois-deleco...
Listen to an ex WRC driver view on the WRC.
He wanted to enter a Porsche GT3 but..........
Awesome video. Listen to an ex WRC driver view on the WRC.
He wanted to enter a Porsche GT3 but..........
Not wishing to take anything away from Sebastien's obvious ability...it is a one horse race, Obviously !!!!
and as such he will only go down in history as one of the greats because the record books will confirm this!.....He certainly isn't competing in a great 'era' of World Rallying and because of the lack of other Driver and manufacturer's quality of product, i dare say the Citroen models will also not be given the cult status of such Rallying greats as Delta's, Quattro's, Evo's, Impreza's etc, !
and as such he will only go down in history as one of the greats because the record books will confirm this!.....He certainly isn't competing in a great 'era' of World Rallying and because of the lack of other Driver and manufacturer's quality of product, i dare say the Citroen models will also not be given the cult status of such Rallying greats as Delta's, Quattro's, Evo's, Impreza's etc, !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGUD6Wz14w
Anyone who does not feel Richard Burns was a top driver watch the above video.
10 Years since he won his World Championship.
At the time I was gutted as being a Scot I wanted Mcrae to win.
Unfortunatly Richard had a fight which he could not win and its pretty hard watching the above video
RIP Champion
Anyone who does not feel Richard Burns was a top driver watch the above video.
10 Years since he won his World Championship.
At the time I was gutted as being a Scot I wanted Mcrae to win.
Unfortunatly Richard had a fight which he could not win and its pretty hard watching the above video
RIP Champion
nav p said:
Seriously...the Subaru and Mitsi brand have enjoyed huge sales success because of the rally efforts..
Which begs the question, why are they not still in WRC?I would also say probably 50% of those 2 manufacturers on the roads over here are imports, is the UK market for that sort of car (new) that small. I certainly dont see many new Evo's or Imprezza's around thats for sure, is this because of their decline in rallying status or price point!
Is it the Evo and Imprezza have simply run their course, was it very early 90's they came into production? Have they literally taken that design/name as far as they can and to build a new car from scratch rather than update must cost millions? Nothing lasts for ever, name in point the Delta, Celica, 205/206 etc
Simple, they are no longer in the WRC because of costs v diminishing returns by way of media. The WRC has continually shot itself in the foot with strange rules/regs. The biggest mistake was 10 years ago trying to turn it into F1 on Gravel. Copying everything that worked in F1 – fine in theory, but has been shown to be wrong. Rallies should not all be the same, they need to be different. All that was needed was a few tweaks....
Compare a Lombard RAC Rally and the crowds and media interest v a Wales RallyGB........There you have one of modern Rallying’s big problems.
However, don’t let anything take away from Loeb’s success – simply awesome record, fast on every surface, usually drives at 8 tenths, which is nearly always enough, and when needed, will turn the wick up. Add in very few mistakes, and voila – a Rallying machine!! He’s also proved to be quick in a F1 test, 2nd place in a Pescarolo-Judd in 2006 to a factory Audi diesel...
Compare a Lombard RAC Rally and the crowds and media interest v a Wales RallyGB........There you have one of modern Rallying’s big problems.
However, don’t let anything take away from Loeb’s success – simply awesome record, fast on every surface, usually drives at 8 tenths, which is nearly always enough, and when needed, will turn the wick up. Add in very few mistakes, and voila – a Rallying machine!! He’s also proved to be quick in a F1 test, 2nd place in a Pescarolo-Judd in 2006 to a factory Audi diesel...
zeb said:
DJRC said:
When did Richard Burns become a rallying great?? Fairly handy yes, great? Knock it off. Munari or Henri he aint.
Bit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
dear me what a truly ignorant comment. Not world champion by accidentBit unfair to throw Sainz to the wolves by saying Loeb came in and whupped him, Carlos was 5 yrs past his best by then!
So no, its not ignorant, Ive stood my watches in Grizedale gloom and was brought up with the tales and culture of the night rally days of the 60s and 70s. I just have a different definition of Great to you.
I still disagree
To be world champion in any discipline you have to a little more than 'fairly handy'. Its a bit like saying pele was 'good with the ball' or Nadal 'can hit it a bit'. Burns for me was more of a thinker as opposed to McRae's gung ho approach....still got be in it to win it. I genuinely believe that loebs dominance would not have been so total over recent years if burns was still about.
To be world champion in any discipline you have to a little more than 'fairly handy'. Its a bit like saying pele was 'good with the ball' or Nadal 'can hit it a bit'. Burns for me was more of a thinker as opposed to McRae's gung ho approach....still got be in it to win it. I genuinely believe that loebs dominance would not have been so total over recent years if burns was still about.
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