RE: Driven: Porsche 911 Carrera S (991)

[Deranged Granny]

SeventyThree said:

First of all I'd like to say what a great article this is, really well written and informative, so thanks for that.

Really? I often found myself re-reading sentences to try and make sense of what he was trying to say.

[Wills2]

Dan Trent said:

Fittster said:

What's the width of a 991?

991 Carrera: 4491/1808/1303/2450 (length/width/height/wheelbase)
997 Carrera: 4435/1808/1310/2350

As noted, front track on Carrera is +46mm and +56mm on the S but the overall width is the same.

Hope that helps! And, for what it's worth, as I said in the review from the driver's seat it still feels respectably compact. Not 964 compact but definitely usefully chuckable.

Interesting so it's no wider than the 997 C2/S at 1808mm

[TheDeadPrussian]

SWoll said:

TheDeadPrussian said:

I have a deposit on a 991 and these first reviews I have to say are not that promising. I went to Frankfurt to view the car and I have to admit I was initially underwhelmed by it, but the design details have grown on me in the past couple of months and I am learning to appreciate the differences.

However, £97K or so (in my chosen specification) is a lot of money for something I am not sure is going to prove different (or exciting) enough to make me want to move from my current 997.2 GT3. I think I may sit on my option to purchase for a while longer….

Put simply this is not an F430 to 458 moment.

At this level of the 911 ladder I don't think that is necesarily a fair comparison TBH. The 458 is a single model and isn't expected to be the jack of all trades a lower level 911 is.

Perhaps when the new GT3 or Turbo are released we might be able to assess how far the 991 has moved the game on.

And if I was you I would definately be sticking with the 997.2 GT3 for a while yet.

The F430 to 458 was not really a direct comparison to the 911, just an analogy. That is, that when the 458 appeared, almost instantly the F430 looked dated and 430 owners felt an urge to move on. 997 to 991, the urge isn't there yet!

I will be sticking with the 997.2 GT3 for now I think, and the 991 GT3 will have to be quite special to persuade me to throw another great sum of money at it, ‘incremental’ or ‘degrees’ are not words I want to read in any review; I want 'game changing' and 'astonishing'!

[Ex Boy Racer]

Carl_Docklands said:

Ex Boy Racer said:

Interesting to look at the difference between Porsche and Ferrari. When Ferrari come out with a new model they really seem to want to push the envelope and move things on. And their customers (and the press) welcome this and expect it. Porsche on the other hand seem to have got bogged down by this 'evolution not revolution' mantra where changes are subtle or non-existant. Unfortunately their customer base (and, again, the press) has followed this and now dread change. Instead of welcoming a new model, they simply compare it with the last one.
Some would say that it seems to be working for Porsche, but I wonder if it is. Back in the 90's when I had my 993 it was a stunning car, admired wherever i went. Certainly it was on a par with the 'small' ferrari of the time in image and price. Now? As the article says, we question how a 911 can be touching £100k optioned up. The 458 on the other hand is changing hands at £200k plus. Lazy ambition will catch up with you in the end and I feel that time is coming for Porsche. People say it's in danger of becoming audi-like? I would say Audi has eclipsed it with the R8. Again, ambition pays...

Not saying you are wrong but, on the evidence of the sport-auto test, the only magazine to have a car to play with is, that this car competes with metal twice its price.

Have a look to see where the Gen2 Turbo S is in this leaderboard:


17. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:09.70 134 '09 570 / 1485
18. Koenigsegg CCR 1:09.80 134 '04 806 / 1418 Sport Auto
19. Nissan GT-R 1:09.94 134 '11 530 / 1736 Auto Bild
23. Ferrari 430 Scuderia 1:10.30 133 '07 510 / 1402 Sport Auto
24. Porsche 911 GT3 1:10.40 133 '09 435 / 1376 Sport Auto

25. Porsche 911 Carrera S 1:10.40 133 '11 400 / 1415 Host Von Saurma

26. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:10.50 133 '09 570 / 1485
27. Nissan GT-R 1:10.70 133 '08 479 / 1740 Sport Auto
28. Pagani Zonda F 1:10.80 132 '05 602 / 1371 Sport Auto
29. Mercedes SLS AMG 1:10.80 132 '10 571 / 1620 Sport Auto
30. Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 1:10.90 132 '07 530 / 1520 Sport Auto
31. Porsche 911 Turbo S 1:10.90 132 '10 530 / 1585 Sport Auto

I guess that's my point. Look at the cars that the new 911 seems to be as capable as... all more expensive by miles yet we complain about the 911's price!

[Mermaid]

kikiturbo said:

in porsche terms, 997 to 991 is as much of a revolution as anything.. Chassis, for one thing, is mostly aluminum now, some 90 kg lighter than before, active roll bar works great, and the whole car is re-engineered.. On the test drive I was mos surprised as to how adjustable it was at the limit.. and how much grip it had in front..

as for the 997.2 gt3... I'd stick to that for a while too.. new carrera S might be as fast, but why not wait for the new gt3...

The 991 will date the 997 quite quickly, however the special models will still be sought after.
It is not in the interest of Porsche for residuals to drop too fast on the 997 models, and there will have worked out a plan for a soft landing.

[kbf1981]

MrCarCoach said:

Porsche's pace of development seems slow to me, take Ferrari as a comparison the leap from the 360 to 430 was huge, and then if not more so from 430 to 458. Ferrari move the game on with each iteration of its mid-engined V8's. But the 991 does not seem to move things on and to some degree it would seem, actually irons out some of the charm/charisma of the 911.

As others have said, they are in danger of becoming Audi's sister sports car brand.

Hmmmmmmmmm, it looks good though!

Regards,

Mr.CarCoach.

The 991 is epicly fast. The 458 whilst being a great car, isn't that amazing considering it's £200k and slower than an LP570SL. It's lovely looking, however...

The standard 991S is getting 7.40 ring times and brilliant times on other tracks, whilst being usable everyday. What do we think a 991TT / GT3 will get? 7.20?

[kbf1981]

Ex Boy Racer said:

Carl_Docklands said:

Ex Boy Racer said:

Interesting to look at the difference between Porsche and Ferrari. When Ferrari come out with a new model they really seem to want to push the envelope and move things on. And their customers (and the press) welcome this and expect it. Porsche on the other hand seem to have got bogged down by this 'evolution not revolution' mantra where changes are subtle or non-existant. Unfortunately their customer base (and, again, the press) has followed this and now dread change. Instead of welcoming a new model, they simply compare it with the last one.
Some would say that it seems to be working for Porsche, but I wonder if it is. Back in the 90's when I had my 993 it was a stunning car, admired wherever i went. Certainly it was on a par with the 'small' ferrari of the time in image and price. Now? As the article says, we question how a 911 can be touching £100k optioned up. The 458 on the other hand is changing hands at £200k plus. Lazy ambition will catch up with you in the end and I feel that time is coming for Porsche. People say it's in danger of becoming audi-like? I would say Audi has eclipsed it with the R8. Again, ambition pays...

Not saying you are wrong but, on the evidence of the sport-auto test, the only magazine to have a car to play with is, that this car competes with metal twice its price.

Have a look to see where the Gen2 Turbo S is in this leaderboard:


17. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:09.70 134 '09 570 / 1485
18. Koenigsegg CCR 1:09.80 134 '04 806 / 1418 Sport Auto
19. Nissan GT-R 1:09.94 134 '11 530 / 1736 Auto Bild
23. Ferrari 430 Scuderia 1:10.30 133 '07 510 / 1402 Sport Auto
24. Porsche 911 GT3 1:10.40 133 '09 435 / 1376 Sport Auto

25. Porsche 911 Carrera S 1:10.40 133 '11 400 / 1415 Host Von Saurma

26. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:10.50 133 '09 570 / 1485
27. Nissan GT-R 1:10.70 133 '08 479 / 1740 Sport Auto
28. Pagani Zonda F 1:10.80 132 '05 602 / 1371 Sport Auto
29. Mercedes SLS AMG 1:10.80 132 '10 571 / 1620 Sport Auto
30. Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 1:10.90 132 '07 530 / 1520 Sport Auto
31. Porsche 911 Turbo S 1:10.90 132 '10 530 / 1585 Sport Auto

I guess that's my point. Look at the cars that the new 911 seems to be as capable as... all more expensive by miles yet we complain about the 911's price!

He is wrong.

I love the 458 as much as anyone else, but I don't think it's a big leap forward. It's a pretty car that makes a great sound and looks quite fun. The hot 991's will be significantly faster, much like the hot 997's were better track cars than the 430's.

Porsche (and no bias since whilst I own a 997, I'm looking at a Ferrari now)....just seem to be able to make the best road / track cars going. For evidence of this, look not only at the times above (and the times the 997S had against stuff when it was launched in 2004), but also the fact that a GT3 can basically be rolled straight onto a track and be competitive with minimal changes.

[Cassius81]

Putting the price and gearbox to one side for a minute, I think it looks superb - the various 911 iterations seem to me to be about evolution, not dramatic change, and this is another good example of that. It is modern, yet clearly similar to its predecessors.

This is what Porsche do, they sell a lot of cars that way (and have kept the same model going for what, 40 odd years?), so why change to a Ferrari-esque system of dramatic changes every 5 years or so?

The only time they've made a big design jump was from 993 to 996... And 996 prices tell the story there.

All in my opinion, of course...

[HollywoodStig]

Hmmm my first post is likely to be a controversial one...

Seems the world and his wife has an opinion on where Porsche have gone 'wrong' with 991... Even though AutoCar, EVO (Chris '911' Harris) no less, Top Gear & now PH have reported nothing but rave reviews. Albeit not yet on UK soil.

Quite why some feel it necessary to compare the transition from 997 to 991 in the same light as F430 to 458 Italia? 991 goes up by £5k over 997, 458 went up by £40-50k? So on pure economics you can't expect, and won't get the same quantum leap. Nor do I suspect the buying public of which there will be 1200ish in the UK for 991 in 2012 WANT a radical departure from their 997.

Performance figures alone do not make a car, and 991 C2S although just as swift as my 997.1 GT3RS will never tempt me to trade. I suspect that's a relief to all those at Weisach working on the next GT3/RS... The Carrera & Carrera S's of this world weathering manual (my preference...) or PDK (extremely good nowadays) offers all things to all men and a reasonably specced C2S PDK comes out at £87k not £100k so let's compare apples with apples here. AM V8, R8 V8, Jag XKR etc and in this company 991 will doubtless 'own' the competition as it always has.

Every new 911 launch has the old-guard up in arms about further loss of the DNA... May I suggest you stick with your 930/964/993 and enjoy them, they are great & the reason you are so passionate about the brand. But let's not have this public & brutal denegrration of the achievements of the brand every time they HAVE to re-invent the legend to keep it relevant.

As for the Audi connection Porsche will still be the jewel in the crown, and it will be Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley etc that benefit from the tie-up rather than the dilution of the most successful automotive brand in the world.

I drove a 2002 Murcielago the other day and came away thing of it is as a poor Italian interpretation of a TVR (sounded good though) and followed it up with a 2010 Gallardo Superlegerra... AWESOME. If that's what Audi money can do for that brand then bring on the 991 GT3/RS please.

[SeventyThree]

Deranged Granny said:

SeventyThree said:

First of all I'd like to say what a great article this is, really well written and informative, so thanks for that.

Really? I often found myself re-reading sentences to try and make sense of what he was trying to say.

Well I liked it. A distinct and punchy writing style.

[Wills2]

HollywoodStig said:

Hmmm my first post is likely to be a controversial one...

Seems the world and his wife has an opinion on where Porsche have gone 'wrong' with 991... Even though AutoCar, EVO (Chris '911' Harris) no less, Top Gear & now PH have reported nothing but rave reviews. Albeit not yet on UK soil.

Quite why some feel it necessary to compare the transition from 997 to 991 in the same light as F430 to 458 Italia? 991 goes up by £5k over 997, 458 went up by £40-50k? So on pure economics you can't expect, and won't get the same quantum leap. Nor do I suspect the buying public of which there will be 1200ish in the UK for 991 in 2012 WANT a radical departure from their 997.

Performance figures alone do not make a car, and 991 C2S although just as swift as my 997.1 GT3RS will never tempt me to trade. I suspect that's a relief to all those at Weisach working on the next GT3/RS... The Carrera & Carrera S's of this world weathering manual (my preference...) or PDK (extremely good nowadays) offers all things to all men and a reasonably specced C2S PDK comes out at £87k not £100k so let's compare apples with apples here. AM V8, R8 V8, Jag XKR etc and in this company 991 will doubtless 'own' the competition as it always has.

Every new 911 launch has the old-guard up in arms about further loss of the DNA... May I suggest you stick with your 930/964/993 and enjoy them, they are great & the reason you are so passionate about the brand. But let's not have this public & brutal denegrration of the achievements of the brand every time they HAVE to re-invent the legend to keep it relevant.

As for the Audi connection Porsche will still be the jewel in the crown, and it will be Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley etc that benefit from the tie-up rather than the dilution of the most successful automotive brand in the world.

I drove a 2002 Murcielago the other day and came away thing of it is as a poor Italian interpretation of a TVR (sounded good though) and followed it up with a 2010 Gallardo Superlegerra... AWESOME. If that's what Audi money can do for that brand then bring on the 991 GT3/RS please.

Well said.

[mollytherocker]

A well written and thought out review I thought, well done PH!

So far it sounds pretty good and Porsche seem to have made the car they had to make, i.e; a car that should delight enthusiasts and the 'latest thing' brigade.

But my god, that price is just too steep. £100k for a C2S?

I reckon Porsche have got their pricing very wrong. If it doesnt sell like hot cakes right now, its going to be a real struggle in a couple of years.

MTR

[Wills2]

Ex Boy Racer said:

Interesting to look at the difference between Porsche and Ferrari. When Ferrari come out with a new model they really seem to want to push the envelope and move things on. And their customers (and the press) welcome this and expect it. Porsche on the other hand seem to have got bogged down by this 'evolution not revolution' mantra where changes are subtle or non-existant. Unfortunately their customer base (and, again, the press) has followed this and now dread change. Instead of welcoming a new model, they simply compare it with the last one.
Some would say that it seems to be working for Porsche, but I wonder if it is. Back in the 90's when I had my 993 it was a stunning car, admired wherever i went. Certainly it was on a par with the 'small' ferrari of the time in image and price. Now? As the article says, we question how a 911 can be touching £100k optioned up. The 458 on the other hand is changing hands at £200k plus. Lazy ambition will catch up with you in the end and I feel that time is coming for Porsche. People say it's in danger of becoming audi-like? I would say Audi has eclipsed it with the R8. Again, ambition pays...

Not sure that I see your point? You cannot compare a cooking 911 to a 458 it just doesn't stack up.

You talk about ambition in relation to sports car manufacture? Well Porsche is the most successful motorsport manufacturer ever and that shows in its road cars especially the 911 with every new 911 besting its rivals for performance and efficency.

In response to your comment about the R8 this new 911 appears to have moved the game on considerably.

Now if you are talking about a cars "posing value" then yes the Audi is streets ahead.

[Fittster]

Dan Trent said:

991 Carrera: 4491/1808/1303/2450 (length/width/height/wheelbase)
997 Carrera: 4435/1808/1310/2350

As noted, front track on Carrera is +46mm and +56mm on the S but the overall width is the same.

Hope that helps! And, for what it's worth, as I said in the review from the driver's seat it still feels respectably compact. Not 964 compact but definitely usefully chuckable.

Well at least the width has bloated so that's a big positive.

[HollywoodStig]

Can someone PLEASE go and spec up a £100k 991 and report back... It would be an absolute Xmas tree!

C2S
Manual Box
GT Silver
BOSE
Navigation
Hot Seats
iPod
Would satisfy MOST of us, & it sounds like £85/6 to me?

Where does £100,000 keep coming from!?

[kikiturbo]

HollywoodStig said:

Can someone PLEASE go and spec up a £100k 991 and report back... It would be an absolute Xmas tree!

C2S
Manual Box
GT Silver
BOSE
Navigation
Hot Seats
iPod
Would satisfy MOST of us, & it sounds like £85/6 to me?

Where does £100,000 keep coming from!?

may I suggest, sport seats, PASM + Chrono pack + sports Exhaust.. (sounds rather nice)... got mine up to 91 grand..

[mollytherocker]

HollywoodStig said:

Where does £100,000 keep coming from!?

From the car reviewed!

MTR

[HollywoodStig]

Sounds like a nice car, still 10% away from £100k though... It's like a 458 listing at £180k? (I may be wrong) and then invoicing at. £210k+ with 'essential' options...

[HollywoodStig]

mollytherocker said:

From the car reviewed!

MTR

Thanks MTR... As usual manufacturer overloading Press Demo's.... Remember Audi RS5's at nearly £80k!?...

[Dan Trent]

HollywoodStig said:

mollytherocker said:

From the car reviewed!

MTR

Thanks MTR... As usual manufacturer overloading Press Demo's.... Remember Audi RS5's at nearly £80k!?...

It was a real shame there were no 3.4 Carreras there to test but, as you will have read, it was hard enough to get a manual. Glad I did though. The base engine sounds like a cracker too - -4mm stroke and +300rpm means it should be a real zinger. It'll need revs but since when has that been a hardship with a Porsche?

Of course, we'll need to book one in to test now. You know. Journalistic thoroughness and all that.