RE: VW's R brand: we're going for diesel and 4WD
Discussion
Superhoop said:
It's not just VW though. One of the Japanese brands are saying the exact same thing, and they're set to combine light weight with new a new engine line up next year - they don't expect to need a hybrid in their range for a good few years yet.
I bet it won't be a diesel though. Diesel is cop-out for getting higher mpg and lower CO2 at the expense of worse particulate and NOX emissions. VW are riding the crest of a legislative wave where the fuel is treated with leniency in Europe, and all the German manufacturers are cashing in.Superhoop said:
The great news in all of this - light weight means better drivers cars
Agreed.80sboy said:
It was meant relatively. It pulls pretty linearly from 1500 to 5000... for an older tech diesel, it's pretty good. Compared to diesels of a few years ago that pulled from 2000-2100rpm... terrible.
My point is that some diesels are excellent now. Give it a few years and they'll be smoother, more responsive, more linear, more powerful, rev higher, and be more fun to drive.
I'm not being overly defensive over diesel and I'm not a derv head. I just got rid of a BMW straight six petrol and LOVED it.
I'm not a MPG chaser either, but with the prices of fuel and the benefits of an economical diesel... it's the future. For now.
In order to obtain all of those features you really need to push the boundaries of the engines into crazy compression ratios with high boost turbos and high pressure injectors, all of which cost an absolute bomb to fix.My point is that some diesels are excellent now. Give it a few years and they'll be smoother, more responsive, more linear, more powerful, rev higher, and be more fun to drive.
I'm not being overly defensive over diesel and I'm not a derv head. I just got rid of a BMW straight six petrol and LOVED it.
I'm not a MPG chaser either, but with the prices of fuel and the benefits of an economical diesel... it's the future. For now.
Edited by 80sboy on Wednesday 23 November 12:28
Sam1990 said:
80sboy said:
It was meant relatively. It pulls pretty linearly from 1500 to 5000... for an older tech diesel, it's pretty good. Compared to diesels of a few years ago that pulled from 2000-2100rpm... terrible.
My point is that some diesels are excellent now. Give it a few years and they'll be smoother, more responsive, more linear, more powerful, rev higher, and be more fun to drive.
I'm not being overly defensive over diesel and I'm not a derv head. I just got rid of a BMW straight six petrol and LOVED it.
I'm not a MPG chaser either, but with the prices of fuel and the benefits of an economical diesel... it's the future. For now.
In order to obtain all of those features you really need to push the boundaries of the engines into crazy compression ratios with high boost turbos and high pressure injectors, all of which cost an absolute bomb to fix.My point is that some diesels are excellent now. Give it a few years and they'll be smoother, more responsive, more linear, more powerful, rev higher, and be more fun to drive.
I'm not being overly defensive over diesel and I'm not a derv head. I just got rid of a BMW straight six petrol and LOVED it.
I'm not a MPG chaser either, but with the prices of fuel and the benefits of an economical diesel... it's the future. For now.
Edited by 80sboy on Wednesday 23 November 12:28
Larger, more responsive turbo's possibly? Stronger turbo's and injectors handling higher boost and pressures more reliably? Isn't BMW developing a tri-turbo, one of them being electric?
It's stuff like this; tech will move on.
I don't see how they can say they are focusing on weight then add a paraffin stove under the bonnet and a heavy 4wd transmission? Seems a bit contradictory to me?
Also, having good experience of the GTD I comfortably predict they'll be good cars ruined by the diesel engines. The GTD's I drove had nothing below 2000rpm, and ran out of urge just as things were getting interesting. It was always a relief to get back into the 328i afterwards and have a properly flexible power unit to play with. Great car otherwise, just had completely the wrong fuel type in it.
Also quite interesting that VW think diesels are the future when BMW are predicting a mass shift back to petrol. Think I'd be more tempted to side with Munich if I'm honest, they seem to have predicted this diesel wave pretty well.
Also, having good experience of the GTD I comfortably predict they'll be good cars ruined by the diesel engines. The GTD's I drove had nothing below 2000rpm, and ran out of urge just as things were getting interesting. It was always a relief to get back into the 328i afterwards and have a properly flexible power unit to play with. Great car otherwise, just had completely the wrong fuel type in it.
Also quite interesting that VW think diesels are the future when BMW are predicting a mass shift back to petrol. Think I'd be more tempted to side with Munich if I'm honest, they seem to have predicted this diesel wave pretty well.
Don't see the point?
Positive is only economy.
Negative, is noise (especially when cold), black smoke on acceleration, smelly fuel, inferior rev range compared to petrol and so on.
If you want a top of the range performance car, you won't be winging over £100 difference a month on fuel and you'll want some decent acceleration noise for the cash.
Would anyone here buy one new over the petrol equivalent?
The future is hybrid and then electric (of some form), not diesel.
Positive is only economy.
Negative, is noise (especially when cold), black smoke on acceleration, smelly fuel, inferior rev range compared to petrol and so on.
If you want a top of the range performance car, you won't be winging over £100 difference a month on fuel and you'll want some decent acceleration noise for the cash.
Would anyone here buy one new over the petrol equivalent?
The future is hybrid and then electric (of some form), not diesel.
Edited by fastgerman on Wednesday 23 November 13:14
I dunno I think petrol turbos are going to be the stars of the future.
Some of the newer petrol turbos are returning rather increadible MPG figures and when you factor in the price gap between petrol and diesel the petrols are closing the gap on performance v economy v fun on the road.
My twin turbo 3 liter six is already averaging 32mpg and the N54 is really a bit "Old school" compared to the new tech now and around the corner.
However having said all that I can see the excellence of say a 123d. Great engine, fun to drive and super handling.
So more revs and more power from that little diesel would be OK by me and you know if anyone can do it BMW can.
Some of the newer petrol turbos are returning rather increadible MPG figures and when you factor in the price gap between petrol and diesel the petrols are closing the gap on performance v economy v fun on the road.
My twin turbo 3 liter six is already averaging 32mpg and the N54 is really a bit "Old school" compared to the new tech now and around the corner.
However having said all that I can see the excellence of say a 123d. Great engine, fun to drive and super handling.
So more revs and more power from that little diesel would be OK by me and you know if anyone can do it BMW can.
Personally I have a strange preference for derv.
I think it's to do with my daily drive, much boring motorway grinding. But I still like to be able to pick up the speed as and when I want which a decent diesel would let me do. (Without having to work up through the rev-range too far.) I guess you might describe me as a lazy fast driver!
I've been wondering for a while when VW were going to start actually competing with BMW on the diesel power front vis-a-vis the Golf vs 1 Series scenario, I guess this is it.
The main problem I forsee is that for my tastes VW are getting a little too ambitious with their pricing. I don't perceive them as a premium brand like BMW, so I tend to balk a little at their prices.
I think it's to do with my daily drive, much boring motorway grinding. But I still like to be able to pick up the speed as and when I want which a decent diesel would let me do. (Without having to work up through the rev-range too far.) I guess you might describe me as a lazy fast driver!
I've been wondering for a while when VW were going to start actually competing with BMW on the diesel power front vis-a-vis the Golf vs 1 Series scenario, I guess this is it.
The main problem I forsee is that for my tastes VW are getting a little too ambitious with their pricing. I don't perceive them as a premium brand like BMW, so I tend to balk a little at their prices.
80sboy said:
Sam1990 said:
80sboy said:
It was meant relatively. It pulls pretty linearly from 1500 to 5000... for an older tech diesel, it's pretty good. Compared to diesels of a few years ago that pulled from 2000-2100rpm... terrible.
My point is that some diesels are excellent now. Give it a few years and they'll be smoother, more responsive, more linear, more powerful, rev higher, and be more fun to drive.
I'm not being overly defensive over diesel and I'm not a derv head. I just got rid of a BMW straight six petrol and LOVED it.
I'm not a MPG chaser either, but with the prices of fuel and the benefits of an economical diesel... it's the future. For now.
In order to obtain all of those features you really need to push the boundaries of the engines into crazy compression ratios with high boost turbos and high pressure injectors, all of which cost an absolute bomb to fix.My point is that some diesels are excellent now. Give it a few years and they'll be smoother, more responsive, more linear, more powerful, rev higher, and be more fun to drive.
I'm not being overly defensive over diesel and I'm not a derv head. I just got rid of a BMW straight six petrol and LOVED it.
I'm not a MPG chaser either, but with the prices of fuel and the benefits of an economical diesel... it's the future. For now.
Edited by 80sboy on Wednesday 23 November 12:28
Larger, more responsive turbo's possibly? Stronger turbo's and injectors handling higher boost and pressures more reliably? Isn't BMW developing a tri-turbo, one of them being electric?
It's stuff like this; tech will move on.
V8A*ndy said:
I dunno I think petrol turbos are going to be the stars of the future.
Some of the newer petrol turbos are returning rather increadible MPG figures and when you factor in the price gap between petrol and diesel the petrols are closing the gap on performance v economy v fun on the road.
Possibly, but don't believe a word of Vauxhall's figures. They're nearly 40% of their quoted figure for my car...Some of the newer petrol turbos are returning rather increadible MPG figures and when you factor in the price gap between petrol and diesel the petrols are closing the gap on performance v economy v fun on the road.
Parents have a 1.4 TSi Golf and even that's a fair way off their quoted economy. My old Golf GT TDi would do the stated economy with very little driver effort whatsoever.
Perhaps it's happening more in the high capacity engines, but I don't really see the economy argument for turbo petrols quite yet.
Mr Gear said:
I bet it won't be a diesel though. Diesel is cop-out for getting higher mpg and lower CO2 at the expense of worse particulate and NOX emissions. VW are riding the crest of a legislative wave where the fuel is treated with leniency in Europe, and all the German manufacturers are cashing in.
Too true.Diesel cost is already overtaking petrol, there's just less of it available and it is dirtier. Low capacity petrol engines with turbos to improve torque/power and allow little valve timing overlap (thus reducing the amount of fuel expunged unburnt and improving emissions) will have to fill the gap before other tech takes over and will improve air quality.
There are too many legislative powers making bad decisions (VED based on potential emissions(mpg) and not actual fuel burnt and thus actual emissions as just one example - IMO we simply shouldn't be in a situation where diesel is preferable to petrol or other cleaner fuels, it doesn't add up regardless of mpg figures etc. and frankly I fear that the carcinogenic properties of the emissions have left us with a legacy we will all have to deal with in years to come by paying the ultimate price - watching our loved ones battle cancers.
Diesel was only originally popular with commercial users because it was a cheap waste product and suited low revving industrial engines which needed longevity.
I just wish that our democratically elected governments could see past the balance sheet once in a while and legislate based on facts and in the best interests of humanity/the environment - but that's what it is to be governed by a group of popularity contest winners who have appealed to a populace whereby tying your own shoe lace is not to be assumed an arbitrary skill.
elvismiggell said:
The main problem I forsee is that for my tastes VW are getting a little too ambitious with their pricing. I don't perceive them as a premium brand like BMW, so I tend to balk a little at their prices.
I am always amazed at how much more people are willing to pay for brand - VAG are expert at exploiting that, and selling essentially the same product at different price points. People really are suckers.fastgerman said:
Don't see the point?
Positive is only economy.
Negative, is noise (especially when cold), black smoke on acceleration, smelly fuel, inferior rev range compared to petrol and so on.
If you want a top of the range performance car, you won't be winging over £100 difference a month on fuel and you'll want some decent acceleration noise for the cash.
Would anyone here buy one new over the petrol equivalent?
The future is hybrid and then electric (of some form), not diesel.
+1Positive is only economy.
Negative, is noise (especially when cold), black smoke on acceleration, smelly fuel, inferior rev range compared to petrol and so on.
If you want a top of the range performance car, you won't be winging over £100 difference a month on fuel and you'll want some decent acceleration noise for the cash.
Would anyone here buy one new over the petrol equivalent?
The future is hybrid and then electric (of some form), not diesel.
Edited by fastgerman on Wednesday 23 November 13:14
too many negatives for diesels to become performance cars in the near future. I have one of each (although very different, Insigna vs s/c 350z).
The inignia is perfect for the work journey purely for economy, but the way it delivers its 160ps is frustrating. It goes from no power to all power to nothing in the space of about 3500rpm - anything after that is redundant really. Im sure a specific sport diesel will be much better, but it will still have no comparison to anything powered by petrol
More annoying is the fact that diesels take ages to warm up in the mornings
Rather than this meaning VW are going to refresh their existing line of R cars with Diesel Engines, and start replacing the petrol golf r and scirroco with Diesel equivelants. I've got the feeling we might see a Passat R diesel added to the line up to compete with Audi and BMW. It seems a bit nuts for VW to start canabalising their own sales but maybe they want to slowly position their brand above other marques that they own like Porsche and Audi.
We might also see a Tiguan and Toureg R going by the AWD comments made. Mind you the Toureg Altitude V8 already shifts getting to 60 in under six seconds which isn't bad for a big heavy wannabe off roader.
We might also see a Tiguan and Toureg R going by the AWD comments made. Mind you the Toureg Altitude V8 already shifts getting to 60 in under six seconds which isn't bad for a big heavy wannabe off roader.
tomv1to said:
Rather than this meaning VW are going to refresh their existing line of R cars with Diesel Engines, and start replacing the petrol golf r and scirroco with Diesel equivelants. I've got the feeling we might see a Passat R diesel added to the line up to compete with Audi and BMW. It seems a bit nuts for VW to start canabalising their own sales but maybe they want to slowly position their brand above other marques that they own like Porsche and Audi.
We might also see a Tiguan and Toureg R going by the AWD comments made. Mind you the Toureg Altitude V8 already shifts getting to 60 in under six seconds which isn't bad for a big heavy wannabe off roader.
There already is a Touareg R50, which uses the 5.0 V10 TDI. We might also see a Tiguan and Toureg R going by the AWD comments made. Mind you the Toureg Altitude V8 already shifts getting to 60 in under six seconds which isn't bad for a big heavy wannabe off roader.
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