RE: TVR: Now they've got a price list...
Discussion
The company behind these "new" TVRs is nothing more than a rich Austrian's play thing. If you spend £100k on one of these "TVR" cars, then you're in very real need of checking yourself into your local mental health clinic. As noted above, has any market research and R&D actually been carried out at all? Doesn't seem like it.
If this were genuinely a serious business venture, hoping to utilise the goodwill and heritage of TVR, then it would have re-opened the Blackpool factory and take advantage of the still active TVR parts, engineering, and servicing networks. It also would have made the effort to actually develop a properly new model, working onwards from where the British TVR left off.
Who would be prepared to get a consortium together, buy back the TVR rights, and get the company going again properly? I suspect it would be easier than you'd think. It's just a case of finance. I for one couldn't imagine a better job/project!
Rant over...
If this were genuinely a serious business venture, hoping to utilise the goodwill and heritage of TVR, then it would have re-opened the Blackpool factory and take advantage of the still active TVR parts, engineering, and servicing networks. It also would have made the effort to actually develop a properly new model, working onwards from where the British TVR left off.
Who would be prepared to get a consortium together, buy back the TVR rights, and get the company going again properly? I suspect it would be easier than you'd think. It's just a case of finance. I for one couldn't imagine a better job/project!
Rant over...
storeys66 said:
Who would be prepared to get a consortium together, buy back the TVR rights, and get the company going again properly? I suspect it would be easier than you'd think. It's just a case of finance. I for one couldn't imagine a better job/project!
You could make a small fortune doing that. Provided you started with an enormous one. Fact of the matter is that the niche market position that TVR occupied has been completely overrun by the major car manufacturers. It would be financial lunacy to try to compete in the market segment that TVR once occupied.
storeys66 said:
has any market research
Um, I don't believe TVR ever did much of that - which was one of the refreshing things about the company's ethos...More telling is that despite Herr Probst declaring to the press that they already had 13 orders (or so) for new cars some time last year, none of them (or their customers) has surfaced. The Facebook TVR Motors page had been closed down because 'it only had 1,000 fans' (which I think is rather a lot for what is little more than a 'virtual' company) and the rudementary website hasn't seen any development, not have there been any further announcements...
As for the pipe dreams of 'open factory in Blackpool, blah blah' - completely unrealistic unless the likes of BMW buy the lot (and they wouldn't make themselves very popular with the diehard little Englander clan - who decry any cars being sold to mainland Europe as if we're robbing them, but won't open their wallets themselves - either by doing so). Even with reasonable financial backing, development and production would need to be outfarmed to third parties, and you'd be wise to cut eventual new model development into manageable pieces - start with the Sagaris, develop a 21st century chassis for it, then use that for a roadster - et cetera...
Edited by 900T-R on Monday 21st May 13:32
JonRB said:
You could make a small fortune doing that. Provided you started with an enormous one.
Fact of the matter is that the niche market position that TVR occupied has been completely overrun by the major car manufacturers. It would be financial lunacy to try to compete in the market segment that TVR once occupied.
Recently finished my uni dissertation that touched on this although I don't claim to know as much as 'real Tiv / business folk. Thats essentially what happened with Wheeler - he had made his fortune and was happy to plough in money although not claiming he lost / made significantly on it. Since then, the game has changed - motor shows dont have the effect they once did and levels of development needed are much higher and the buying public by and large expect an awful lot more. Would be great if someone was able to pour in cash one day as possibly people thought NS might have done although I fear that by about 2006 the moment had passed.Fact of the matter is that the niche market position that TVR occupied has been completely overrun by the major car manufacturers. It would be financial lunacy to try to compete in the market segment that TVR once occupied.
I'd say that's a fair assessment. Anything that has any chance of long-term survival will have to be very low volume, at prices a lot higher than what 'old TVR' had been selling cars for, and preferably on the back of something with a rather more favourable ratio between initial investment and earnings, like the aftermarket business for the existing car park (potentially very interesting as TVRs of old did leave a fair bit of room for improvement - IMO they would have to step up their game in terms of engineering compared to the current level of affairs); Wiessmann earn their keep by making hardtops for other convertibles, and Donkervoort pretty much controls their own motorsport, aftermarket and event activities.
900T-R said:
I'd say that's a fair assessment. Anything that has any chance of long-term survival will have to be very low volume, at prices a lot higher than what 'old TVR' had been selling cars for, and preferably on the back of something with a rather more favourable ratio between initial investment and earnings, like the aftermarket business for the existing car park (potentially very interesting as TVRs of old did leave a fair bit of room for improvement - IMO they would have to step up their game in terms of engineering compared to the current level of affairs); Wiessmann earn their keep by making hardtops for other convertibles, and Donkervoort pretty much controls their own motorsport, aftermarket and event activities.
I've often wondered whether there'd be any mileage for TVR if they went back to the cheap-and-cheerful, do-it-yourself-or-turnkey kit-car market.If you think about it, the mainstays of kit-cars are skimpy Lotus Seven-type roadsters and Cobra-alikes with hoofing great V8s in them.
I reckon TVR could unearth the various moulds and offer simplified cars built around crate V8s from Chevrolet. They would cost no more to build, sell or offer as kits than any one of the umpteen Cobra-copiers around, and given that it'd look like a TVR, it'd also have a USP. You could easily resurrect the Griffith like that.
I also reckon they could do their very own equivalent of the Seven as a subspecies, offering the old Grantura of the Sixties with a modern Ford Duratec engine to go up against the likes of Ginetta and Zolfe.
The advantage of doing it as a kit car is simple - no-one buying a kit expects production-line levels of quality control or reliability, and chances are they're handy enough to patch it up themselves. I flicked through a new book on TVR recently, in which the blame for the firm's demise was placed on the way they momentarily managed to sway buyers away from Porsche and Ferrari with the promise of their performance, only to get comprehensively walloped with warranty claims.
Even in the wedge/S/Griff era, they were effectively operating a turnkey outlet rather than a fully-warrantied factory product. Had they stayed like that, accepted that they were never going to make oodles of cash but had a loyal and understanding base of hands-on enthusiasts and club racers, they'd probably still be around today. Like Caterham. Or Ginetta.
OK, so maybe getting a consortium together to re-start TVR and take it back to Blackpool is something of a pipe dream.
However, it's clearly a brand that still has a loyal following and a degree of residue value. The suggestion of taking TVR back to its roots is interesting.
My thinking was along the lines of keeping a basic spaceframe structure; re-develop bodywork with facelifted designs (initially) and carbon technology; use proven drivetrain technology supplied by a third party (eg. BMW E39 M5 V8 engines and gearboxes); keep weight and fripperies to an absolute minimum; ensure a regular presence at high profile events; ensure prices place vehicles in a competitive segment far below performance levels... etc. Let's be honest, the appeal of a TVR was the way it looked, the way it sounded, the extreme (if not entirely friendly) performance, and the exclusivity.
Lotus look like they're about to disappear, and I suspect that over-ambition is to blame. It was a brilliantly successful outfit whilst their products remained true to the original ethos of lightweight sports cars focussing on driver enjoyment. It's luxury items and high volume type approval that's the death of these type of vehicles, unless someone's prepared to invest £billions. Attention to detail within the design process is also key, irrespective of final execution within the build stage.
I'm pretty sure that TVR could be a great British brand once again. It just needs to be carefully managed with a long-term plan, and avoid being over-ambitious. All the technology it would need already exists, as does the skilled labour (although Jaguar Landrover seems to be doing its best to hoover up anyone with decent talent).
However, it's clearly a brand that still has a loyal following and a degree of residue value. The suggestion of taking TVR back to its roots is interesting.
My thinking was along the lines of keeping a basic spaceframe structure; re-develop bodywork with facelifted designs (initially) and carbon technology; use proven drivetrain technology supplied by a third party (eg. BMW E39 M5 V8 engines and gearboxes); keep weight and fripperies to an absolute minimum; ensure a regular presence at high profile events; ensure prices place vehicles in a competitive segment far below performance levels... etc. Let's be honest, the appeal of a TVR was the way it looked, the way it sounded, the extreme (if not entirely friendly) performance, and the exclusivity.
Lotus look like they're about to disappear, and I suspect that over-ambition is to blame. It was a brilliantly successful outfit whilst their products remained true to the original ethos of lightweight sports cars focussing on driver enjoyment. It's luxury items and high volume type approval that's the death of these type of vehicles, unless someone's prepared to invest £billions. Attention to detail within the design process is also key, irrespective of final execution within the build stage.
I'm pretty sure that TVR could be a great British brand once again. It just needs to be carefully managed with a long-term plan, and avoid being over-ambitious. All the technology it would need already exists, as does the skilled labour (although Jaguar Landrover seems to be doing its best to hoover up anyone with decent talent).
storeys66 said:
Lotus look like they're about to disappear, and I suspect that over-ambition is to blame. It was a brilliantly successful outfit whilst their products remained true to the original ethos of lightweight sports cars focussing on driver enjoyment.
Actually, Lotus have lurched from one financial crisis to another. I don't think that at any point in their history have they been 'brilliantly successful'. Certainly not since Chapman's death anyway. 
I would rather buy a second hand 997 GT2 911 for 70k and still have money left over to buy a cheap run around or modify the 911.
or buy a w221 S65 amg as a donor car and transplant the engine n running gears into an old 1966 600 pullman or grossor.
or whatever other wild ideas I can come up with better ways of spending a 100k
or buy a w221 S65 amg as a donor car and transplant the engine n running gears into an old 1966 600 pullman or grossor.
or whatever other wild ideas I can come up with better ways of spending a 100k
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