RE: Time for tea? Senna makes his mark

[456lbft]

Turbobanana said:

I watched the same car, year after year, in the Willhire 24hrs. I think it even won one year (?), and I definitely remember it going backwards into the barrier at Bombhole and carrying on, about 3 feet shorter. I believe it was Alastair Davidson ( not Dickson) that owned it... May be wrong, two decades does that to you.

It was, and he also now owns at least one Toleman/Hart.

[Oddball RS]

Midgster said:

Oddball RS said:

DLovett said:

"This Senna just beat the lot of you by a mile. Any comments?"

"Oh, we weren't taking it seriously!"

"nothing to prove, not worth dying for"

I don't believe this for one second....you take some of the best drivers in the world and put them on a track together all in exactly the same car and you think they are not going to take it seriously? They were ALL trying their best, but just like Schuey used to (and still does sometimes), Senna would always push things just that little step further, perhaps into the realms of dangerous driving. But like it or loathe it, that's what made Senna (and Schuey) the man he was.

And i don't believe that for a second either, not EVERYONE in that race intended to win or even try to win that race, some would be there for the laugh, adults can sometimes just do things for the hell of it - therefore everyone was not trying 100%, but their is always someone given the situation and audience that will try 110% (And this is not a bad thing but everyone has different motives) Senna was up and coming and he needed a win and knew it, if you are trying to make an impact and a career third or eighth aren't going to cut it are they?

[jamesghwilson]

Oddball RS said:

Midgster said:

Oddball RS said:

DLovett said:

"This Senna just beat the lot of you by a mile. Any comments?"

"Oh, we weren't taking it seriously!"

"nothing to prove, not worth dying for"

I don't believe this for one second....you take some of the best drivers in the world and put them on a track together all in exactly the same car and you think they are not going to take it seriously? They were ALL trying their best, but just like Schuey used to (and still does sometimes), Senna would always push things just that little step further, perhaps into the realms of dangerous driving. But like it or loathe it, that's what made Senna (and Schuey) the man he was.

And i don't believe that for a second either, not EVERYONE in that race intended to win or even try to win that race, some would be there for the laugh, adults can sometimes just do things for the hell of it - therefore everyone was not trying 100%, but their is always someone given the situation and audience that will try 110% (And this is not a bad thing but everyone has different motives) Senna was up and coming and he needed a win and knew it, if you are trying to make an impact and a career third or eighth aren't going to cut it are they?

I agree with Midgster.

Oddball RS, are you honestly insinuating that you put a combination of the most competitive/best people in motorsport at the time together, they're not going to take it seriously? Even when I'm karting with my mates, of course even I (an amateur) want to win. It may be a 'friendly', but it's still a competition.

Loved the documentary! As previously mentioned, a great watch for all audiences regardless of whether they're interesyed in motorsport (although, of course it helps).

[bobbylondonuk]

If you dont go for a gap when it is in front of you....you are no longer a racing driver!

[Oddball RS]

jamesghwilson said:

Oddball RS said:

Midgster said:

Oddball RS said:

DLovett said:

"This Senna just beat the lot of you by a mile. Any comments?"

"Oh, we weren't taking it seriously!"

"nothing to prove, not worth dying for"

I don't believe this for one second....you take some of the best drivers in the world and put them on a track together all in exactly the same car and you think they are not going to take it seriously? They were ALL trying their best, but just like Schuey used to (and still does sometimes), Senna would always push things just that little step further, perhaps into the realms of dangerous driving. But like it or loathe it, that's what made Senna (and Schuey) the man he was.

And i don't believe that for a second either, not EVERYONE in that race intended to win or even try to win that race, some would be there for the laugh, adults can sometimes just do things for the hell of it - therefore everyone was not trying 100%, but their is always someone given the situation and audience that will try 110% (And this is not a bad thing but everyone has different motives) Senna was up and coming and he needed a win and knew it, if you are trying to make an impact and a career third or eighth aren't going to cut it are they?

I agree with Midgster.

Oddball RS, are you honestly insinuating that you put a combination of the most competitive/best people in motorsport at the time together, they're not going to take it seriously? Even when I'm karting with my mates, of course even I (an amateur) want to win. It may be a 'friendly', but it's still a competition.

Loved the documentary! As previously mentioned, a great watch for all audiences regardless of whether they're interesyed in motorsport (although, of course it helps).

Yes i am, do you think Stirling Moss risked his life in that race for a win? what really????????

[Dagnut]

cadoganpier said:

I can add a little bit to the story of that race( I think).
In 1999 I raced one of the original 190 Mercedes that where built for the race in question. We ran in the up to 2.5ltr class at the Ring' 24hrs and amazingly won our class. The incredible thing was the car. It was (maybe still is?) owned by a Potatoe farmer from Norfolk called Alastair Dickson and run by his team Wix Racing.
I remember when I first went to see the car it was covered in muck and dust in one of his farm sheds, basically it looked like a barn find, but, he assured me, it ran like clockwork and was quick. Getting into the car I was amazed to see that the thing had 60,000 odd KM on the clock and had never been a road car!. To be honest I wasn't too sure but as the drive was cheap I agreed to have a go. Fast forward to practice for the race.
On my first flying lap the temperature gauge went through the roof and on inspection we discovered the (very rare) head was knackered, from memory it had corroded. The mechanics tried to fix( bodge) it and we crossed everything. I seem to remember doing some very gentle night laps to qualify and hoping for the best, as is always the case the worst happened and pop went the head.
As we didn't have a spare and all the dealers seemed to be shut we pretty much gave up until my German co driver came to the rescue.
I can't remember his second name now, his first was Willi, anyway, this guy was a big cheese at Camel Tobacco and was heavily involved in their motorsport sponsorship effort and he had the number of someone very senior at Mercedes who he was happy to call and try and pull in a favour from. It is worth remembering that at the time Merecedes motorsport where having a really tough time, they had cars flipping at Le Mans and a couple of weeks before Hakkinen had a very public failure at the German GP, Willi convinced his mate at MB that we where odds on to win (given that most the opposition where in Alfa's it wasn't that unreasonable) and that he should help.
A couple of hours later ( it is now about 2 in the morning) Willi gets a call saying a head is on its way to us!. Incredibly his pal had got two mechanics from the motorsport division to go to the Museum in Stuttgart and take the head from the only 2.3 16V he could find which was on display, they also grabbed all the shims they could, dropped the lot in the pannier of a very old BMW bike and legged it to the Ring. These guys then helped the team fit the head and we literally made the start by about 5 mins, my God it sounded dreadful. My recollections of driving the car are varied, it was easy to drive quickly, very neutral handling, crap old ABS brakes, very wobbly ( given its life this is no surprise) and had terrifying bump steer, to make it through the bottom of the foxhole flat you had to basically turn in aiming for the inside barrier then as the suspension compressed the bump steer would correct things for you!, given the state of the cage in the car and its somewhat flexible chassis going off there would have been very bad news. The speedo still worked and it was pulling about 255kph flat chat, which given the fact that the valves where not exactly perfectly adjusted ( second hand shims!)wasn't to bad. Save for some issues with the brakes the thing ran like clockwork for 24hrs. The owner suspected that it might be the highest mileage race car in existence being a veteran of several Willhire & ring 24hr races, I can't imagine anything else that could put up with the abuse.
Ps we got a very nice thank you from Mercedes for the class win and never had to pay a cent for the help but I never find out who drove it back in 84.

Great post..thanks.

[chevronb37]

Oddball RS said:

jamesghwilson said:

Oddball RS said:

Midgster said:

Oddball RS said:

DLovett said:

"This Senna just beat the lot of you by a mile. Any comments?"

"Oh, we weren't taking it seriously!"

"nothing to prove, not worth dying for"

I don't believe this for one second....you take some of the best drivers in the world and put them on a track together all in exactly the same car and you think they are not going to take it seriously? They were ALL trying their best, but just like Schuey used to (and still does sometimes), Senna would always push things just that little step further, perhaps into the realms of dangerous driving. But like it or loathe it, that's what made Senna (and Schuey) the man he was.

And i don't believe that for a second either, not EVERYONE in that race intended to win or even try to win that race, some would be there for the laugh, adults can sometimes just do things for the hell of it - therefore everyone was not trying 100%, but their is always someone given the situation and audience that will try 110% (And this is not a bad thing but everyone has different motives) Senna was up and coming and he needed a win and knew it, if you are trying to make an impact and a career third or eighth aren't going to cut it are they?

I agree with Midgster.

Oddball RS, are you honestly insinuating that you put a combination of the most competitive/best people in motorsport at the time together, they're not going to take it seriously? Even when I'm karting with my mates, of course even I (an amateur) want to win. It may be a 'friendly', but it's still a competition.

Loved the documentary! As previously mentioned, a great watch for all audiences regardless of whether they're interesyed in motorsport (although, of course it helps).

Yes i am, do you think Stirling Moss risked his life in that race for a win? what really????????

I think it's overly dramatic to put it in such terms. Bearing in mind that this was only a couple of years on from Sir Stirling's foray into the BTCC, I sincerely belive he would've been going for the win; all of them in fact. However, as with all these things, some will try harder than others. Look at GP Masters - at the first race in Kyalami, Mansell and Emmo had clearly been training constantly and wiped the floor with the lot of them. Back on topic, a driver like Senna is bound to be better prepared than, say, Sir Stirling or Denny Hulme given the point in the respective careers. But every time a racing driver puts on his helmet, he lays it on the line; that's why they're different to the rest of us - that's why Rubens stills wants to race, why Bellof went for that move on Ickx through Eau Rouge which killed him, why Dan Wheldon was racing in Las Vegas. I could go on. That's why the real racers will always be our heroes.

[456lbft]

IIRC Senna won another celebrity saloon race at Oulton Park in 1982, in a Sunbeam Ti. He took that pretty seriously as well.
I also remember when Jody Scheckter appeared in the TV program "Superstars" which pitted various sportsmen against each other in various competitive athletic challenges. He set new benchmarks in the gym-test section after re-inventing the squat thrusts by sliding his feet across the line rather than hopping over it. I can't imagine him not taking any competition massively seriously.

[pagani1]

Senna thrashes the GP stars!
Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
This was a headline featured in the motoring press at the time and of course Mercedes were thrilled as there wasn't much of a story otherwise.
As Lauda and Piquet won the two BMW M1 Procar series of F1 coupled
seasons of races driving same spec BMW M1 cars, they actually proved they could cut the mustard amongst their peers.
Seeing Senna deliberately drive Prost into the catch fencing in Japan endangering BOTH of their lives means I don't suscribe to the post death popular hagiography of Senna as a Legend or as the best.
Anymore than being totally disgusted in M.Schumacher's tactics in trying to drive Barichello into the wall or indeed punting into Damon or Jacques in desperate attempts to win at all costs.
Senna and Schumacher were not gentlemen racers-just ruthless. Witness Alonso & Webber at Eau Rouge this year-that's Motor Racing at it's most thrilling-with respect for each other and their lives.

Edited by pagani1 on Monday 28th November 16:03

Edited by pagani1 on Monday 28th November 16:04

Edited by pagani1 on Monday 28th November 16:06

[McSam]

Can't we have a full-size, or at least larger, copy of the main scan? I can't read any detail on that first photo.

[RichB]

pagani1 said:

...I don't subscribe to the post death popular hagiography of Senna as a Legend or as the best. Anymore than being totally disgusted in M.Schumacher's tactics in trying to drive Barichello into the wall or indeed punting into Damon or Jacques in desperate attempts to win at all costs.
Senna and Schumacher were not gentlemen racers-just ruthless.

I agree. I think the awe in which Senna is held is an age thing. There are less people interested in F1 who remember seeing Jim Clark or as in my case Jackie Stewart, who people seem to have forgotten was a three times world champion. Senna & Schumacher were good racers but I would never put either at the top of my all time top driver list.

[dinkel]

RichB said:

. . . the top of my all time top driver list.

That would be mister 'I drove everything and was fab in it' Jackie Ickx: long career and such diversity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacky_Ickx

Ace since 1968 (fastest rookie pole) to his last '85 LM: awesome with a capital A.

[Johnboy Mac]

RichB said:

Senna & Schumacher were good racers (but I would never put either at the top of my all time top driver list).

Correct or incorrect, that's some statement to make.

[Johnboy Mac]

cadoganpier said:

The bump steer issue wasn't down to poor set up it was just a quirk of that car, if you have ever driven at the ring you know the foxhole is unusual in that you are turning whilst the suspension is fully compressed. The car was quite softly sprung for a big old heavy race car and also given the fact that it pretty much always rains so generally you err on the softer side it was completely bottoming out, you could actually feel it flex! Just try and imagine the forces on a 16 year old chassis running slicks going flat through there, you have probably got maybe 1.5g lateral load plus a good couple of G of vertical compression, to be honest thinking about it now sat in front of the fire with my feet up I am amazed the bloody wheels didn't fall off, I suspect we got off lightly with a bit of bump steer. The year after I drove a GRP A M3 and following a shunt in qualifying the steering would jam going through left handers if you where flat due to broken engine mounts! That got my bloody attention!!! Bump steer seemed quite nice after that

Ideally, what modifications would you have wished for on the old machine - simple bracing/a better multi point cage & different suspension set up etc?

[born1951]

will261058 said:

I find it hard to believe that a group consisting of the most competitive drivers of that time would not give their all. Its amazing how many people that dont win "were not taking it seriously". I prefer to think that Senna was the one on top of his game. And what a field to come first in!

If I remember right, Niki Lauda had no time to take part in training and qualifying, so he had to start from the last row, and in the race he overtook all drivers except Senna. And that in only 12 rounds. Has anybody access to the qualifying result lists to check whether my memory is right or wrong?

[The Stiglet]

cadoganpier said:

The bump steer issue wasn't down to poor set up it was just a quirk of that car, if you have ever driven at the ring you know the foxhole is unusual in that you are turning whilst the suspension is fully compressed. The car was quite softly sprung for a big old heavy race car and also given the fact that it pretty much always rains so generally you err on the softer side it was completely bottoming out, you could actually feel it flex! Just try and imagine the forces on a 16 year old chassis running slicks going flat through there, you have probably got maybe 1.5g lateral load plus a good couple of G of vertical compression, to be honest thinking about it now sat in front of the fire with my feet up I am amazed the bloody wheels didn't fall off, I suspect we got off lightly with a bit of bump steer. The year after I drove a GRP A M3 and following a shunt in qualifying the steering would jam going through left handers if you where flat due to broken engine mounts! That got my bloody attention!!! Bump steer seemed quite nice after that

The original story was good but the M3 takes it to another level! As others have said, thanks for sharing.

[dinkel]

born1951 said:

If I remember right, Niki Lauda had no time to take part in training and qualifying, so he had to start from the last row, and in the race he overtook all drivers except Senna. And that in only 12 rounds. Has anybody access to the qualifying result lists to check whether my memory is right or wrong?

Senna passing lauda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzOgspVDEXc

[The Stiglet]

dinkel said:

born1951 said:

If I remember right, Niki Lauda had no time to take part in training and qualifying, so he had to start from the last row, and in the race he overtook all drivers except Senna. And that in only 12 rounds. Has anybody access to the qualifying result lists to check whether my memory is right or wrong?

Senna passing lauda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzOgspVDEXc

I think the original quote was in reference to the Mercedes 190 race but still, it's nice to admire the move

[dinkel]

Beng!

Passing Lauda in a race . . . phew.

[born1951]

The Stiglet said:

dinkel said:

born1951 said:

If I remember right, Niki Lauda had no time to take part in training and qualifying, so he had to start from the last row, and in the race he overtook all drivers except Senna. And that in only 12 rounds. Has anybody access to the qualifying result lists to check whether my memory is right or wrong?

Senna passing lauda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzOgspVDEXc

I think the original quote was in reference to the Mercedes 190 race but still, it's nice to admire the move

Exactly. The one of May 12th, 1984. Does anybody remember or has access to the qualifying result lists? At the end of the race, Lauda was 1,39 sec. behind Senna - if he managed to do so from the last row, I would say he was the best driver in this race - just a little less lucky than Jenson Button at the Candada Grand Prix 2011, when he managed to win after having been thrown back to the end of the field - what a race!