RE: Time for tea? Senna makes his mark

[born1951]

dinkel said:

Beng!

Passing Lauda in a race . . . phew.

When this happened (Monaco Grand Prix 1984), Senna was 24, in his first F1 season, extremely ambitious (and talented, yes); Lauda was 35, father of 2 boys, and not too keen on risking his life - but still he became champion by the end of the year. He did not like to race under heavy rain with hardly any sight, 1976 in the rainy race of Fuji he stopped and gave away his possible second title to save his life ... and he still is alive.

[dinkel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFqsWWG1qE&fea...

Unreal . . .

[dinkel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGBNYMZVHb8&fea...

Even more unreal.

[Johnboy Mac]

born1951 said:

... and he still is alive.

I'll only say this on your comment. You are, putting it mildy being disgenuous to Senna, considering Senna's death was due a mechnical (steering) failure on his car, not his lack of judgement or disrespect for his own life.

[bicycleshorts]

dinkel said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFqsWWG1qE&fea...

Unreal . . .

Noticed this in the cinema as well, why doesn't the sound match up with the images? Surely someone must've noticed this before they released it.

[RichB]

Are you chaps saying this is 'unreal' simply because he appears to get on the power momentarily before the soundtrack? Puzzled... Or because the clip conveys the agression and violence of driving one of these 1500bhp monsters with manual gear-change and no electroic gizmos around Monaco for 2 hours? Unreal in that it's beyond my comprehsnsion how hard it must have been indeed!

[dinkel]

You got it Rich . . .

[born1951]

Johnboy Mac said:

born1951 said:

... and he still is alive.

I'll only say this on your comment. You are, putting it mildy, being disgenuous to Senna, considering Senna's death was due a mechnical (steering) failure on his car, not his lack of judgement or disrespect for his own life.

1994 when this fatal accident happened in Imola, Senna was 34 and certainly mature enough not to do crazy things to put his life into unnecessary danger - I am not so sure about his early years. Going very fast with no sight implies always some extra risk - crazy things can happen (remember Schumi-Coulthard in Spa 1998). I just wanted to give my opinion that this "Senna overtaking Lauda in a race" was only partially Senna being brave, it was also Lauda being prudent. And that it paid for him to be prudent sometimes ... that's why I ended with "and he still is alive". I did not mean to claim that Senna could be still alive if he had been more prudent. But I cannot recall any other race in 1984 where Senna overtook Lauda except in the GP of Monaco under heavy rain. Of course, Lauda had the better car, and his real opponent in this year was Alain Prost - I still remember them battling for the title, thrilling to the very end, with 0.5 points that made all the difference.

The main reason why I entered this discussion was the statement "in equal cars, Senna wins" (referring to the Nürburgring Mercedes 190 race of 1984). But hardly anyone remembers that the "man of the day" was rather Lauda who started from the last row and overtook all other racers except Senna ... maybe a few rounds more, and he would have gotten him as well (? - we will never know), now in the statistics it's simply "Senna first, Lauda second".

[Johnboy Mac]

born1951 said:

I did not mean to claim that Senna could be still alive if he had been more prudent.

Cool. And you're right about NL.

[dinkel]

born1951 said:

Johnboy Mac said:

born1951 said:

... and he still is alive.

I'll only say this on your comment. You are, putting it mildy, being disgenuous to Senna, considering Senna's death was due a mechnical (steering) failure on his car, not his lack of judgement or disrespect for his own life.

... maybe a few rounds more, and he would have gotten him as well (? - we will never know), now in the statistics it's simply "Senna first, Lauda second".

It would be interesting to ask Lauda!

[born1951]

dinkel said:

born1951 said:

... maybe a few rounds more, and he would have gotten him as well (? - we will never know), now in the statistics it's simply "Senna first, Lauda second".

It would be interesting to ask Lauda!

Good idea - since I lack his e-mail address, I wrote him an old-fashioned letter on paper, let's see whether I'll get a reply ... will certainly take a while.

[born1951]

Out of curiosity, I worked out some statistics on the 1984 Nürburgring Mercedes 190 exhibition race.

For the top 10 arrivers plus Prost (15th), I took the fastest lap, multiplied it by 12 and compared it to the actual race time after 12 laps.

Rank	Driver	fastest lap	f.l. x 12	actual time	difference
1	Senna	02:13,54	26:42,48	26:57,78	00:15,30
2	Lauda	02:13,84	26:46,08	26:59,16	00:13,08
3	Reutemann	02:13,90	26:46,80	27:01,47	00:14,67
4	Rosberg	02:13,15	26:37,80	27:01,98	00:24,18
5	Watson	02:13,20	26:38,40	27:02,25	00:23,85
6	Hulme	02:13,82	26:45,84	27:04,13	00:18,29
7	Scheckter	02:12,50	26:30,00	27:04,90	00:34,90
8	Brabham	02:13,24	26:38,88	27:11,85	00:32,97
9	Ludwig	02:14,36	26:52,32	27:16,27	00:23,95
10	Hunt	02:13,69	26:44,28	27:17,46	00:33,18
15	Prost	02:13,47	26:41,64	27:37,12	00:55,48

If I sort it by the fastest lap, the result is:

Rank	Driver	fastest lap	f.l. x 12	actual time	difference
7	Scheckter	02:12,50	26:30,00	27:04,90	00:34,90
4	Rosberg	02:13,15	26:37,80	27:01,98	00:24,18
5	Watson	02:13,20	26:38,40	27:02,25	00:23,85
8	Brabham	02:13,24	26:38,88	27:11,85	00:32,97
15	Prost	02:13,47	26:41,64	27:37,12	00:55,48
1	Senna	02:13,54	26:42,48	26:57,78	00:15,30
10	Hunt	02:13,69	26:44,28	27:17,46	00:33,18
6	Hulme	02:13,82	26:45,84	27:04,13	00:18,29
2	Lauda	02:13,84	26:46,08	26:59,16	00:13,08
3	Reutemann	02:13,90	26:46,80	27:01,47	00:14,67
9	Ludwig	02:14,36	26:52,32	27:16,27	00:23,95

And if I sort it by the difference, the result is:

Rank	Driver	fastest lap	f.l. x 12	actual time	difference
2	Lauda	02:13,84	26:46,08	26:59,16	00:13,08
3	Reutemann	02:13,90	26:46,80	27:01,47	00:14,67
1	Senna	02:13,54	26:42,48	26:57,78	00:15,30
6	Hulme	02:13,82	26:45,84	27:04,13	00:18,29
5	Watson	02:13,20	26:38,40	27:02,25	00:23,85
9	Ludwig	02:14,36	26:52,32	27:16,27	00:23,95
4	Rosberg	02:13,15	26:37,80	27:01,98	00:24,18
8	Brabham	02:13,24	26:38,88	27:11,85	00:32,97
10	Hunt	02:13,69	26:44,28	27:17,46	00:33,18
7	Scheckter	02:12,50	26:30,00	27:04,90	00:34,90
15	Prost	02:13,47	26:41,64	27:37,12	00:55,48

Now, what does it mean, when a driver who is capable of running a pretty fast lap cannot keep this speed over 12 laps? May have to do with coming away from the track as we know about Prost, may have to do with a major mistake in one lap, may have to do with changing weather conditions, may have to do with a learning curve (most drivers did their fastest lap in lap 12 or 9, Senna in lap 7, Lauda in lap 4). And little surprise that Lauda had no very fast lap, because coming from the last row and overtaking all the time costs.

Apparently the first 3 were the ones who did not make major mistakes, great result for old Denny Hulme to be the only other one with less than 20 seconds difference between fastest lap multiplied by 12 and actual race time - chapeau!

[born1951]

robsco said:

fingersprice said:

Fittster said:

So he wasn't out qualified by Prost then who got knocked off the track for his troubles?

No he wasn't actually

Assuming your referring to Japan 1990 Senna was on pole but Prost beat him into the first corner (after the pole position was mysteriously moved to the dirty side of the track at the last minute).

As we all know neither driver made it round the corner.....

Senna knew exactly what he was going to do into that corner if he lost the lead (which inevitably he was going to with the pole moved to the dirty side). But who can blame him after the debacle of Suzuka the year before?

Interesting how people can drift away from the topic. "Assuming your referring to Japan 1990" ... Fittster was clearly referring to the topic which is "Nürburgring Mercedes 190 exhibition race 1984", and there Alain Prost was on pole and was knocked off the track by Senna in the first lap (there was no mentioning of "first corner" in Fittster's post).

I discovered at http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w201-190-class/146...

The race was also Senna's first meeting - and first confrontation - with his arch rival Alain Prost, who recalled in an interview with Nigel Roebuck in 1998: 'I was coming from Geneva to Frankfurt on a scheduled flight, and Ayrton was due to land half an hour before, so Gerd Kremer of Mercedes asked me if I would bring him to the track. On the way we chatted, and he was very pleasant. Then we got to the track, and practised the cars. I was on pole with Ayrton second - After that he didn't talk to me any more! It seemed funny at the time. Then in the race, I took the lead - and he pushed me off the track after half a lap. So that was a good start...'

Therefore, Prost was certainly one of the drivers Lauda did NOT have to overtake car against car, he probably smoothly passed by while Prost had to get back on track - as we can conclude from his total time compared to his fastets lap.

Without having the two fastest drivers of these days out of his way (Prost off track and Lauda 18 positions behind him on the grid), I still have my doubts whether Senna would have finished first in this race - but even if he had finished third, it would have been a nice first proof of his talent, with the even greater proof to come at the Monaco Grand Prix 1984 a few weeks later when he finished second in a F1 Grand Prix ... passing Lauda in a race, phew!

[born1951]

born1951 said:

Alain Prost, who recalled in an interview with Nigel Roebuck in 1998: ... I was on pole with Ayrton second - After that he didn't talk to me any more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414y_GQKrDw&fea...


Maybe Prost's memory "Ayrton second" was not 100% precise ... on this video, it looks rather like #5 (Prost) first, #4 (Reutemann) second and #11 (Senna) third on the grid.

And on our video at the beginning of the topic, from 0:10 to 0:11 we see a light car going much faster than all the others around - the name on the side can't be read, but it's short enough to be "LAUDA", and the number is 2 digits - could be 18.

I still have no result list of the qualifying ... gave already a call to Mr. Peter Pauli in Bonn, the timekeeper of the race, just to hear from his widow that he had passed away 2 years ago. May he rest in peace. Wrote an email to Nürburgring - no reply so far.

Edited by born1951 on Thursday 19th January 00:10

[Fabric]

born1951 said:

I still have no result list of the qualifying ... gave already a call to Mr. Peter Pauli in Bonn, the timekeeper of the race, just to hear from his widow that he had passed away 2 years ago. May he rest in peace. Wrote an email to Nürburgring - no reply so far.

This is a bit of a belated post, but may be of some use to you. I stumbled across a record of every race Senna competed in, in the back of Christopher Hilton's book - according to which the 1984 Mercedes 190E celebrity event, had no qualifying session.

You'll have to forgive the cameraphone quality images.

[born1951]

Fabric said:

This is a bit of a belated post, but may be of some use to you. I stumbled across a record of every race Senna competed in, in the back of Christopher Hilton's book - according to which the 1984 Mercedes 190E celebrity event, had no qualifying session.

Thanks for your contribution. But the fact that in this book a qualifying session is not mentioned is no proof that there was not any. According to what criteria should they have been put on the grid otherwise? Alphabetical order? No, then Prost would not have been first and Reuttemann second instead of Brabham and De Angelis. Date of accepting the invitation? Then Senna should have been put last, having taken the seat of Fittipaldi two days before the race started or so. At any amateurs Go Kart race they organise a qualifying before the race. And Prost mentioned he "was on pole" ... would he call it "pole" if he had not been the fastest of the qualifying? Sorry, but my memory says there was this qualifying where Lauda was absent due to some business reasons, I just can't find the proof to it.

[canucklehead]

mrtwisty said:

But what would you call it...?

Championship of Racers perhaps? Champions in a Race? Race of ...

Nope, can't think of a good enough name, it'll have to remain a dream.

mmm, and you would never ever put them all in identical 911s and set them loose, it would be too much fun....

..at least until some drivers' egos emerged rather battered and bruised, and they stopped joining in, and then the whole series would wither and fade and drag on semi-comatose for 30 years while most people outside of of NASCAR would think it had died years ago.

nah, would never happen.

[Housey]

Vocal Minority said:

Without wanting to widdle all over a great story, and not disputing the credentials of a Mr A Senna for a moment, but this always gets blown a smidge out of proportion, as the other drivers were rather startled by how seriously Senna was taking it compared to them...

Have you ever met a professional racing driver?

Don't for second think that would have any effect on their performance

[Captainawesome]

M666 EVO said:

pSyCoSiS said:

Senna was absolutely amazing at what he did.

You guys seen his film / documentary?

He was on a totally different level.....

It is the one film I am gagging to see at the moment. The missus says no though so I am going to have to send her out for a night... Maybe tomorrow

My Mrs not really a petrol head but she watched it and loved it. Even then came to the cinema to watch Rush with me (also very good)

[dinkel]

Housey said:

Have you ever met a professional racing driver?

How focussed are they?

Vettel: it all starts with being extremely comfortable . . .

I often start my business presentation with a similar sentence.

These guys are beyond concentration. Almost like budist priests. I can only guess they must have above average IQs and think at similar pace as their racing.