RE: Feature: Winter tyres - worth the bother?

[nickfrog]

dvs_dave said:

nickfrog said:

VerySideways said:

nickfrog said:

dvs_dave said:

It's not getting stuck in snow that worries me, it's cruising along on a seemingly clear road, hitting a spot of black ice and suddenly finding yourself as a passenger going sideways at 60mph and heading for something immovable.

Winter tyres won't help you in this situation.

I completely disagree - last year i was on a patch of road and came across a scene where a few cars had clearly come together. Turns out that as i was slowing down to avoid them i went over the same patch of black ice they'd gone over. I felt it, definitely, but i was still able to brake and steer enough to avoid them, i did not lose control of the car. I'd put that down to 5% my skills and 95% the winter tyres that were on my car.

Incidentally none of the people were hurt, but all of them had hit the trees at the side of the road (and one of them had hit someone else's car too).

At 60mph as per the original situation described above?

60 mph ? On ice ? Do you genuinely think that winter tyres will make ANY difference on sheer ice at 60 mph ?

Oh for god's sake. I'm not talking about hooning along a clearly snow and ice covered road. I'm talking about black ice situations.

As you clearly have zero concept of how a tyre actually works and have paid no attention to any winter tyre tests, hopefully the below will help.

Black ice is not sheer smooth ice. It's a thin layer of ice that covers the contours of the road surface. A winter tyre stays malleable enough to still find grip by conforming to the road surface contours and irregularities. A summer tyre doesn't so skates across the top. See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clSC7APitaQ

Additionally completely smooth ice is not found anywhere in nature which is why winter tyres still work wonders on ice. Just check out the numerous winter tyre tests involving ice rinks which is about as sheer as physically possible for proof.

Also here's a link to the auto express test that debunks the "winter tyres in the wet are not as good as summers" crowd's argument. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_g...

So in summary, a winter tyre in these circumstances has a much much greater chance of saving my bacon. This is a very valuable benefit to me.

Why can't people just accept that winter tyres are better in the winter???? There's mountains of evidence proving so yet people still continue on with a pig headed ignorance that is truly astonishing.

Seems to me that the naysayers are generally people who bang on that their 250 quid st box on ling longs has been fine for the past 20 years. Look it's ok if you're not prepared to spend the cash on a set of winters, we won't think anything less of you. But please stop trying to hide your unwillingness to spend money on a sensible bit of kit by hiding behind a ridiculous defensive naysaying shield.

Very simply, winter tyres are better in the cold, regardless of any experiences you've ever had in the past. Accept it and move on.

Nah, you're wrong mate. Used winter tyres for 10 years in the Alps thanks (mainly Michelin Alpin) so I have loads of real world experience in proper winter weather but in Sussex, summer tyres work all year for me. Not the best grip or traction or braking distances in winter but I adapt my speed and safety distances accordingly. More fun that's for sure. 1 deg this morning and PLENTY of grip / traction after a couple of miles warm up. I don't buy the winter tyre BS marketing, lobbying, mag tests etc and all the righteous internet experts who jump on the bandwagon. No issues with anyone using them (and they are great indeed for MANY people and for many counties or circumstances) but for ME and my needs, no thanks.

Chill out by the way, it's not that bad.

[ktm301p]

JohnG1 said:

I spent £3,400 on a set of winter wheels and tyres yesterday. I will pop up a posting here once I have had some time to compare them to the summer, semi-slick tyres my car is fitted with as OEM.

Was the £3,400 spent on your Aygo, or V12 Aston?

[JohnG1]

ktm301p said:

JohnG1 said:

I spent £3,400 on a set of winter wheels and tyres yesterday. I will pop up a posting here once I have had some time to compare them to the summer, semi-slick tyres my car is fitted with as OEM.

Was the £3,400 spent on your Aygo, or V12 Aston?

Nice car, not aygo....

But I suspect you knew that already....

[thinfourth2]

My wife also spent £3400 on a set of winter tyres as she wasn't 100% sure her fiat panda would be any good in the snow




They did come with a free Subaru Forester attached

[iain1970]

My experiences are much like anyone else that has had them. The set refitted to my wife's Ibiza last night are doing their third winter. I have had a set fitted to my Altea because I need to replace three last month, so going for the winter option all round was a no brainer. Yes, it's an outlay that may seem hard to justify especially when you really need a set of wheels to mount them on (eBay is your friend here), but compared to not getting to work and losing money, or crashing and having all the hassle that ensues, it's a simple thing to do.

There was a report in Fleet News last month citing stopping distances:

"Figures from the British Tyre Manufacturers’ Association (BTMA) are more conservative but still show a significant improvement in stopping distances on the snow. A car fitted with cold weather tyres travelling at 30mph will stop in 35 metres compared to 43 metres with standard tyres (see panel right).

On icy roads a car travelling at 20mph will come to a halt in 57m using cold weather tyres compared to 68m with standard tyres."

These aren't high speeds and 11 metres is quite a distance, roughly the width of a full sized swimming pool. If a wall, tree or pedestrian is within those 11 metres... you know the rest.

Essentially, you start, steer and stop with greater reliability and safety. If you can afford to park up for the duration of the cold conditions, then great. But for those of us that can't afford that luxury and need to get to work for the mighty Pound, I'd say they were a must.

[Andy XJ]

I bought a set of winters for my wife's Megane. I've driven using winter tyres in Germany and, to my mind, they work very well. The tractions is good, but it is the ability to stop in a much more controlled manner that really makes them worth while.

[otolith]

Mr Whippy said:

It's like saying you should get super good tyres for the wet for when you know it might have torrential rain. OR, you could just slow down in heavy rain... oh, we do already... hmmmm...

Yes, the issue really is that many ordinary cars are on what are to winter weather as semi-slick track tyres are to torrential rain. I think the case for winters would be much weaker if most people were driving on good all seasons, but they aren't.

[HertsBiker]

How about the simple fact that us on PH actually have an active interest in cars, and are able to discuss these things, but the general public don't give a fig about tyres (right up) until they cost too much to replace. I'd bet almost any of us enthuisiasts would be better on summers than joe public. But it's not worth arguing about winters as they are simply fantastic in winter (as anyone who has actually used them will testify), and very useable in summer (not on closed circuits mind). Yeah sure there are some brilliant summer tyres and some rubbish winters, but in general who on PH buys budget rubber? do the majority of you lot buy good / tested / rated brands, or Ying-tong ditchfinders? if you buy cheap, expect cheap and nasty results. I'd sooner have 2 sets of wheels + tyres thanks.

[JohnG1]

JohnG1 said:

I spent £3,400 on a set of winter wheels and tyres yesterday. I will pop up a posting here once I have had some time to compare them to the summer, semi-slick tyres my car is fitted with as OEM.

I did 250 miles over the weekend on the winter tyres (Pirelli Sotto Zero). They behaved impeccably, grip was great. Due to the torque of the car it's always possible to spin the tyres the dry in 1st to 4th but with the winter tyres the car felt very planted. TC light did come on a few times but it was not the drama that you get with the summer tyres (Pirelli P-Zero Corsa system).

Although expensive I think it's worth it in certain cases, specifically if you have a high powered car with semi-slick tyres.

[Mr Whippy]

otolith said:

Mr Whippy said:

It's like saying you should get super good tyres for the wet for when you know it might have torrential rain. OR, you could just slow down in heavy rain... oh, we do already... hmmmm...

Yes, the issue really is that many ordinary cars are on what are to winter weather as semi-slick track tyres are to torrential rain. I think the case for winters would be much weaker if most people were driving on good all seasons, but they aren't.

I agree generally.

It is a shame no one makes good all-season tyres.

I just got some new F1 Asymmetric 2 tyres for the back of my car, and if anything I'd say they are worse in the wet and cold than the Asymmetric 1 tyres. They are better in the warm and dry though.

BUT, I didn't really need them to be stickier in the dry. If anything they are already too good in the dry.

I'm very tempted to go to all-season tyres next, but finding nice all-season tyres seems a harder call to make. Very little info seems to be out there, ie, group tests etc... it ALL seems to be about either artificial wet weather or bone dry weather absolute tests.

Hmmm

Dave

[otolith]

I was very impressed with the Vredestein Quatrac 3 as a year round solution, but I wouldn't put them on a sports car.

[jon-]

Mr Whippy said:

I agree generally.

It is a shame no one makes good all-season tyres.

I just got some new F1 Asymmetric 2 tyres for the back of my car, and if anything I'd say they are worse in the wet and cold than the Asymmetric 1 tyres. They are better in the warm and dry though.

BUT, I didn't really need them to be stickier in the dry. If anything they are already too good in the dry.

I'm very tempted to go to all-season tyres next, but finding nice all-season tyres seems a harder call to make. Very little info seems to be out there, ie, group tests etc... it ALL seems to be about either artificial wet weather or bone dry weather absolute tests.

Hmmm

Dave

I'm just writing up an all season piece, the short answer is the only all seasons worth looking at are the Vred Quadrac 3, Goodyear Vector 4Seasons, Bridgestone A001, Hankook Optimo 4S and perhaps the Kleber Quadraxer.

If you want a preview drop me a mail, otherwise I'll link you once the article is live.

[Mr Whippy]

jon- said:

Mr Whippy said:

I agree generally.

It is a shame no one makes good all-season tyres.

I just got some new F1 Asymmetric 2 tyres for the back of my car, and if anything I'd say they are worse in the wet and cold than the Asymmetric 1 tyres. They are better in the warm and dry though.

BUT, I didn't really need them to be stickier in the dry. If anything they are already too good in the dry.

I'm very tempted to go to all-season tyres next, but finding nice all-season tyres seems a harder call to make. Very little info seems to be out there, ie, group tests etc... it ALL seems to be about either artificial wet weather or bone dry weather absolute tests.

Hmmm

Dave

I'm just writing up an all season piece, the short answer is the only all seasons worth looking at are the Vred Quadrac 3, Goodyear Vector 4Seasons, Bridgestone A001, Hankook Optimo 4S and perhaps the Kleber Quadraxer.

If you want a preview drop me a mail, otherwise I'll link you once the article is live.

Deffo link me.

It doesn't help that Mytyres for instance, has one or two tyres for say 255/35 R18 or 225/40 R18, under the all-season drop-down selection.

Otherwise it just appears all you can get it high performance summer items.


I'm kinda regretting buying Asymmetric 2's for the back. The car is super stable/fast, but almost too much so. There is little to enjoy without going too fast to approach the tyres limits.

Grip is important no doubt, but I'd prefer something with a more linear performance envelope across the wide range of conditions the UK weather throws at us all year, and also an envelope that just involves and thrills at more moderate speeds.

I don't want cheap tyres either, I don't mind paying for ones that wear flat and have lower noise levels or last 20% longer etc...




edit:

Hmmm, looks like most stop at 17" sizes... bit naff really.


Cheers

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 6th December 14:43

[jon-]

Mr Whippy said:

jon- said:

Mr Whippy said:

I agree generally.

It is a shame no one makes good all-season tyres.

I just got some new F1 Asymmetric 2 tyres for the back of my car, and if anything I'd say they are worse in the wet and cold than the Asymmetric 1 tyres. They are better in the warm and dry though.

BUT, I didn't really need them to be stickier in the dry. If anything they are already too good in the dry.

I'm very tempted to go to all-season tyres next, but finding nice all-season tyres seems a harder call to make. Very little info seems to be out there, ie, group tests etc... it ALL seems to be about either artificial wet weather or bone dry weather absolute tests.

Hmmm

Dave

I'm just writing up an all season piece, the short answer is the only all seasons worth looking at are the Vred Quadrac 3, Goodyear Vector 4Seasons, Bridgestone A001, Hankook Optimo 4S and perhaps the Kleber Quadraxer.

If you want a preview drop me a mail, otherwise I'll link you once the article is live.

Deffo link me.

It doesn't help that Mytyres for instance, has one or two tyres for say 255/35 R18 or 225/40 R18, under the all-season drop-down selection.

Otherwise it just appears all you can get it high performance summer items.


I'm kinda regretting buying Asymmetric 2's for the back. The car is super stable/fast, but almost too much so. There is little to enjoy without going too fast to approach the tyres limits.

Grip is important no doubt, but I'd prefer something with a more linear performance envelope across the wide range of conditions the UK weather throws at us all year, and also an envelope that just involves and thrills at more moderate speeds.

I don't want cheap tyres either, I don't mind paying for ones that wear flat and have lower noise levels or last 20% longer etc...




edit:

Hmmm, looks like most stop at 17" sizes... bit naff really.


Cheers

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 6th December 14:43

Here's the link, however I think you're going to struggle to find any of them in your sizes!

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2011-Auto-Bil...

[ellisd82]

I have a FWD Pug 306 1.4 and managed to go into the hills to walk my dog. The main issue I have with winter is braking. I know how to brake, but when some numpty pulls out infront of you, then there is really not much you can do. People need to think about taking lessons in driving in adverse weather conditions. Some people just need to take driving lessons.
Winter tyres are better than summer tyres, but driver error will still be a major part of any accident. Winter tyres are not unstoppable, they just perform better than average summer tyres.

Guessing people will have seen this by now. I was speaking to a coach driver and he said that all coachs and buses are fitted with winter tyres.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvdRRSQaysU

[otolith]

ellisd82 said:

Winter tyres are not unstoppable

Indeed not, that tends to be the problem with summers

[mzaalam]

Hehe. I'm new to the ph site but have been reading alot on tyres. Forked out for a set of vredestein wintrac extreme for my a3 3.2. I was under the illusion last year that the Quattro would help in the snow. It probably let me move on a little more than a fwd but when I slid a couple of times for scarily long distances when braking almost crashing I decided I was going to bite the bullet this year.

Tyres are all worn in now. Pumped them up to 42 psi on the front and 45 on the back according to the vred website. Was softer when running in. Much better now. Responsive and grippy on the wet and feeling safer on icy mornings. Definitely needs care when driving because will still slide a bit on ice if you're driving like you would in summer.

Convinced the pa in law to fork out for some nokian WR A3s...

Mytyres service was good. They screwed up the first order but promptly sent correct tyres.

Hope it snows soon

[JonathanC]

Just had a set of Goodyear Ultragrip Perfomance 2 put on my FWD B8 A4. Bought a brand new set of 4 for only £650 off a Goodyear employee who was given them for free as part of Goodyear's health and safety compliance measures. He had recently changed cars so those tyres were no longer any good for him.
Flooring it in first on the 2.0T manual in cold wet weather, the difference was phenomenal, with much much less wheel spin. Breaking distances have also been significantly reduced.

Now I just can't wait for it to snow - not that I would dare floor it in those conditions

[Chicane-UK]

Every person I know who has fitted winter tyres has been staggered at the improvement. I will put money aside for a set next year!

[amokwa]

Chicane-UK said:

Every person I know who has fitted winter tyres has been staggered at the improvement. I will put money aside for a set next year!

We've had our winter tyres on since December however as it's been a mild winter have not been able to utilise them fully.

Had friends over last Saturday and by 11 PM we were snowed in. I had to get them back to Richmond via a hill, the tyres were a revelation, no wheel spin up the hill in the Merc.

There is no doubt on rear-wheel drive car's at least they come highly recommended.