RE: SOTW: Rover 825i Sterling

[red_rover]

Also from CAR magazine in 1993 who pitted the 620SLi against the BMW 318i, Ford Mondeo Ghia and Citroen Xantia:

“Assemble these four cars for appraisal by an unprejudiced public and the Rover would win hands down. No question. It is a winner. If we’re talking class – and that’s what the upper echelons of the M2 sector are all about – the 620SLi exudes it. It is not as roomy as appearances suggest, it does not perform with great distinction, and it’s no more fun to drive (arguably less) than the Ford Mondeo. But it scores handsomely for comfort, refinement, quietness and build quality. Above all, it imbues the driver with a sense of it’s good-to-be-here well-being that its rivals cannot match. It has style, it has image, it has class”.

Or in 1999 when What Car pitted the Rover 75 and the BMW 3-Series (E46) against each other with the title 'When Rover beat BMW'.

Top Gear (with a young Clarkson) claimed the R17 (the MK2 800) was just as competent as the BMW E34 - see below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf4JkMk_tAg&t=1...

Edited by red_rover on Saturday 3rd December 16:08

[dapprman]

J4CKO said:

I had an Audi 100 in the same period and sadly it was better, loved that "CD 30", model, there you go Garlick, a hint for a SOTW, assuming you haven't done one, probably the best car I have owned really, relative to the time it was owned.

If you mean the Audi 100 with the low drag factor, the original car they sold under Volksprung Deutsch Technique (badly spelt I know) then I can guaranty they were either a generation apart else Audi and Rover split their refreshes across each other. I know this because my old man only ever buys new cars and traded in his 4-5 year old Audi 100 for an 825i just a few months after launch.

My old man was not actually consider getting rid of his Audi at the time as he no longer did high mileage and it was a lot more reliable than the SD1s he'd had before. We went to the Preston Austin Rover garage to confirm he would be trading my mother's metro in for a new one. The garage had the 825i in as a demonstrator and had just finished prepping the car for testing. We were talked in to taking it out for a drive (well my old man as I think I was just 16 at the time) and were seriously surprised. I seemed to remember the initial reviews had been mixed and my old man still had memories of the various issues with his second SD1 (his first had been fine, but the 'wedge' princess and wolsey before then ...) but after the drive we were sold and my father actually bought the very same car.

[Balmoral Green]

Yeah, those reprints were great to have scattered around the showroom to impress potential buyers, they were very useful for that. But they weren't potential BMW buyers, on a 216GSi they were more likely an Escort 1.6i Ghia 5dr prospect when asked what other cars they were considering? I don't remember the showroom being full of BMW customers that's for sure, a 316i prospect wouldn't have come anywhere near us.

[dbdb]

dapprman said:

J4CKO said:

I had an Audi 100 in the same period and sadly it was better, loved that "CD 30", model, there you go Garlick, a hint for a SOTW, assuming you haven't done one, probably the best car I have owned really, relative to the time it was owned.

If you mean the Audi 100 with the low drag factor, the original car they sold under Volksprung Deutsch Technique (badly spelt I know) then I can guaranty they were either a generation apart else Audi and Rover split their refreshes across each other. I know this because my old man only ever buys new cars and traded in his 4-5 year old Audi 100 for an 825i just a few months after launch.

My old man was not actually consider getting rid of his Audi at the time as he no longer did high mileage and it was a lot more reliable than the SD1s he'd had before. We went to the Preston Austin Rover garage to confirm he would be trading my mother's metro in for a new one. The garage had the 825i in as a demonstrator and had just finished prepping the car for testing. We were talked in to taking it out for a drive (well my old man as I think I was just 16 at the time) and were seriously surprised. I seemed to remember the initial reviews had been mixed and my old man still had memories of the various issues with his second SD1 (his first had been fine, but the 'wedge' princess and wolsey before then ...) but after the drive we were sold and my father actually bought the very same car.

The Audi 100 came out in 1982, so though it is in the same generation the design had been available for 4 years when the Rover came out. British cars seemed to have vast gestation periods through lack of investment at that time, so possibly became out of step with makers from other countries. The XJ40 which was launched at the same time as the 800 is an example; development was started as early as 1972 with the body pretty much finalised by 1981.

[dbdb]

S8QUATTRO said:

autofocus said:

Hi there,

I bought an 820 Vitesse Turbo Coupe about 18 months ago. I took it off the road and parked it up about a year ago, and only yesterday had it towed to a local garage so they can get it ready for the road again for me.

I flippin love these things are the one I own now is the third one I have had. My first was an 820 Sterling Coupe Auto, the second one was an 825 Sterling Saloon, and now my nightfire red coupe.

Can't wait to get it back on the road and will then use it and restore it at the same time. The Turbo's are an awesome car and with 200bhp it really shifts. Might look out for an 820 Vitesse saloon to go along side it as I really like the Recaro interior.

Heres some pics of my coupe when I picked it up back in August 2010





Regards

Tim

Lovely looking car, forgot about these but always thought they looked great back then

They are pretty, especially the coupe.

turnipbmw said:

my father in law had one that had done 200k when he gave it to me, very nice car to drive and good on fuel.

certainly a better car than a late '80s jag

They're not!

[zcar]

I have owned these for over 15 years now and I currently own three of them, an M reg 1994 827 SLi, an M reg 1994 Sterling and a S reg 1998 Sterling. The S reg is a kv6 like the one shown and has lunched its engine, its awaiting a transplant from one of the other cars. Cost me £112. M Reg sterling is fitted with Koni red shocks, poly bushes and green stuff pads. It has never let me down in 5 years of ownership and will leave a lot of more modern machinery in a straight line and through the twisty bits too. Cost £350 and only done 90k. Its blue and rusty and is an excellent stealth machine and people seem to think they can get past it without bother until I put my foot down! Had an audi driver try it on the other day and at the next lights he was laughing his head off and giving the thumbs up! The M reg SLi is virtually rust free and has bigger anti roll bars off the vitesse, is polybushed and handles nice and flat through the twisty bits, coupled with the sticky Proxes T1-Rs and greenstuff pads I can out handle and embarass a lot of things and for what cost?? £500 for 60000 miles motor and Im crusing around in a leather clad, walnut veneered machine with all the toys that cost as much to buy as the man parked next to me today in his 61 plate bmw 5 series will lose in depreication this month.
Cheap realiable bangernomics - I love em!
Nick

[a_bread]

williamp said:

To back deer old BG up with facts, a fellow PH has scanned rosd tests onto flickr for you all to read. I know you wont read them, but the road testers DO know what car compares to others, and they agree with BG:

The fact that road testers group a bunch of cars together for a test does not imply that they consider them on a par as brands. it simply tends to mean that they are offering a car in a similar size/type class within a reasonably similar price bracket. This can lead to, for example, larger engined versions of Fords being pitted against smaller engined BMWs. If you can find June 1991's What Car test of a Ford Scorpio 2.9 v Vauxhall Carlton 2.6CDX v BMW 525i v Rover 827SLi v Audi 100 2.8E, you'll enjoy a fascinating read that's quite pertinent to this shed thread. To be fair to the rover, there aren't that many examples of the other cars still on the roads either, with the possible exception of E34s

[slarnge]

Now this is what you want!! 75 cdti,its a Bmw underneath This is a new one i have added to my fleet.

[Chicharito]

slarnge said:

Now this is what you want!! 75 cdti,its a Bmw underneath This is a new one i have added to my fleet.

Well, it used some BMW components, but it's not a BMW underneath by any stretch of the imagination.

Worst thing is that they seem to appeal to the kind of people usually seen stretching an England football shirt over their beer-gut in Tenerife.

[tonys]

I've had two of these over the years, clocking up approx. 90,000 miles in each. The first was an 827 manual, lovely engine, very smooth and quiet - other than routine discs/pads etc the only issues were a defective heater blower switch and a recored rad.. In fact, it was a bit too smooth for me initially, but a different exhaust changed that. Later on I had one of the later facelifted Vitesses (Sport), very different in character, but perfectly okay for everyday use, very comfortable Recaro seats.

A few minor problems with the Vitesse such as an abs sensor, the need to resolder a dry joint on the fuse box re electric windows and a coolant sensor. Not really a history of unreliability, is it. Oil changes every 3000 miles might have helped.

Both were often used for 700 mile trips on the French autoroutes and were perfectly fine, the Vitesse being a bit more comfortable on the longer trip and feeling a bit more planted at high speed. Brakes on the Vitesse were really only 'adequate', but then as I don't drive hard on the brakes, it was never an issue for me. Mine left the factory with standard sized discs, not the slightly larger V6 ones that it should have had, presumably due to supplier problems. Caused a bit of headscratching at first.

At the time I was also using a Caterham (later swapped for a TVR) and Merc SL and was always quite happy to get back into the Vitesse as a daily hack. Having just typed this, I now wish I'd just kept it instead of having given it away when I no longer needed it as a daily hack.

Having said that they're okay, personally I would steer clear of the KV6 because of its original inherent problems; which is why I went from V6 Honda to the T16 4-cyl.

[Berksturk]

I am a retired Cop. Before I reached the dizzy heights of management fudging I was a PC and a Sergeant on the Traffic Department. Whilst a PC we had one of these things in our fleet. At this time we had the normal 2.8i Granada and three rebored BMW 5.28i's which were terric. However everyone wanted to drive the Rover with the Honda engine! The poor thing was rebuilt several times, it was know as the 'racing car'! There was always a clamour for the keys at the start of the shift.
I was driving it one night when we actually caught some burglars doing a jewellry shop! Balaclavers the lot - running toward the getaway car which was what? Yes a stolen Sierra Cosworth!! Off we went, middle of the night, stolen gear being thrown out of the car, across school playing fields and dual carriageways and through towns. We kept up with it! The pursuit came to an end when the bad man lost control and presented it broadside to me! The result was 'operational damage' (again) to the Racing Car and a Cosworth without a front end! (My Sergeant was not impressed with me and told me what he thought of me. In those days they could, now it would be bullying in the work place!!!).
The Rover therfore has always had a special place under my right foot! It went like crazy. If I remember it was front wheel drive which had a advantages and disadvantages. Not being able to hang the back end was one!
Good memories!

[slarnge]

Thats not me !! lol

Chicharito said:

Well, it used some BMW components, but it's not a BMW underneath by any stretch of the imagination.

Worst thing is that they seem to appeal to the kind of people usually seen stretching an England football shirt over their beer-gut in Tenerife.

[slarnge]

Look at the wood !!!

[Chicharito]

slarnge said:

Look at the wood plastic !!!

[david.h]

I had a series of these in the 80's/90's. Started with a new 2litre that I ran for 120000 miles...it got pinched from outside the factory (everyone said it must have been an Irishman...stealing a 120000 mile Rover etc, but it was a good car. Took it round the 'Ring in the wet (still have the video taken by the passenger, lots of tyre squeal! ) When we came off there were NO brakes & I got into a petrol station near Adenau Bridge exit with smoke pouring off all 4 wheels! It was ok by the time we collected our wives who chose not to do the Ring cycle! Then I had a later 2l followed by a couple of cheap 2.7's (I had started a company & needed cheap wheels that could cover the miles & carry 750kg of screws & rivets to the platers!)They ran lik sewing machines & that Honda 2.7 was some good engine. After 3 years of these we wer doing well so I swapped for a 2.8 Quattro Avant ..that was something else! Once I rejected the first one for a mass of electrical & dashboard faults (like lowering all the windows as you walked away after"locking"it! I''m told VAG cars still do this trick!- that A4 Quattro was the best car I ever owned! It didn't cook its brakes round the Ring either!

[SWoll]

Just hopped on and can't believe this is still going on


My last comment on the subject is in response to this from BG

Balmoral Green said:

It was a rare perception though

It really wouldn't appear so would it? Based on the majority of posters on this thread who have expressed an opinion it would appear it was commonly held. Sorry if this comes as a surprise to you having been as involved as you were, but you appear to be very much outnumbered in your beliefs in this case.

I look forward to crossing horns again with you in the future.

[andyps]

Balmoral Green said:

SWoll said:

When "Austin Rover' became just "Rover" in the late eighties they made a very clear attempt to reposition the brand, and especially its bigger vehicles,

It was more a case of dropping the Austin brand with all its negative connotations than repositioning Rover. The big cars were always Rovers, so the branding did not change for them at all. The Metro was re-branded as a Rover 100, and no one was delusional enough to think that this made any difference, certainly not Rover. The 200 were always Rovers, so no change there, and the Maestro/Montego ranges were never called or branded as Rovers, even when they were Rover Maeastro's or Rover Montego's. So I don't see where you get this idea of punching above Ford or Vauxhall from? I've got loads of certificates and Diplomas from the Austin Rover sales and marketing school at Studley from back in the day. I remember most of the sale campaigns and advertising from back in the day, and it was always targeted at Ford & Vauxhall.

The only Rover that was targeted at BMW was the early 200 series, and that was tongue in cheek with its 'Quick, quick, slow' campaign, the real opposition was Orion. The notion that people were comparing 800's with BMW's back in the day, and on price too, is ridiculous.

SWoll said:

If this isn't the case plead explain why an 827 was the same price as a 525 and £5k more expensive than a Granada 2.9 Ghia?

List prices and what you pay in the real world are not the same thing. AR dealer margin was 17.5%, plus registration bonuses into the thousands. An 800 could match a Granada in price, model for model pound for pound easily, regardless of list. Real world costs for a BMW? It might just as well be a Rolls Royce.

SWoll said:

Balmoral Green said:

SWoll said:

bks.

I was there selling the fking things! were you?

Thankfully no...

...is the fact that you are/were a car salesman supposed to qualification enough?

Probably.

My mates were taking the piss out of me the other day because we saw an Austin Maestro. I was able to tell them, just from a Glance, that it was a 1985, pre 85 facelift, 1.3L in Oporto red with Brushwood trim. How did I know it was a 1.3L and not a 1.6L when we couldn't see the badge on the back? they asked. Because the slots in the steels were rectangular, whilst on a 1.6 they were circular.

I know so much of this st and I can't seem to be able to delete it and create some disc space. My knowledge of things AR, and how they compared with Ford and Vauxhall is unfortunately, pathetically, encyclopaedic.

I know more than you anyway

Edited by Balmoral Green on Friday 2nd December 17:40

I wish more Austin Rover sales people had been like you - I always seemed to know more than them about the cars when I was changing mine, but then I always read the magazines and was interested and too many salesmen didn't. It was the same with other dealers too, not just restricted to AR.

[andyps]

Balmoral Green said:

Well, I don't agree with you chaps.

I sold AR product all through the eighties, and as I have said repeatedly, back in the day, it was the big three for most of the UK car buying public, and that was it.

If a customer had an AR price list and was looking at a Maestro 1.6L 5dr in met paint, he didn't need the Ford price list to know how much an Escort or Astra 1.6L 5dr in met cost, it would be almost exactly the same.

Trim, equipment, spec, price, more or less identical. If a customer cast their net further afield, a 309 or R11 would also be almost cartel like in similarity.

If it was a 4dr Rover 216SE saloon the customer was interested in, the same could be said for a 4dr Orion 1.6GL saloon. This 'Rover' positioning thing you're so sure existed didn't really get a look in, I never came across a Hyacinth Bucket type in ten years. The car was going to be the Triumph Acclaim MKII and everyone new it was a Honda Ballade anyway.

Rover 820, the 'O' series engined base version? Same thing with the 2.0GL Granada and Carlton. Move up to the plusher V6 versions and it was pretty much the same. Customers just comparing like for like.

OK, the Rovers had some wood veneer, but this whole 'Rover have placed themselves as a cut above' thing is nonsense.

The big three all competed head on. I was there, selling the things day in, day out. Not least in advertising and general marketing, from one quarters campaign to the next.

I didn't really appreciate being told by someone who wasn't there, wasn't doing it, that my perception if the time, and the business, was wrong. Go and watch the Russ Swift Montego car park advert if you want proof of how directly in competition the three were, it's so insular, it's like no other brand existed.

And as for the old 800 in it's twilight years, right at the end of the nineties, if you think it was pushed out by AR onto the pitch to compete with Germany's finest, then your as deluded as you think AR sales & marketing bods were.

And then it became MG Rover, a bit of sporty pretension for MG, and the same old stick on wood for Rover. But ultimately, bread & butter value brands, as they ever were. I really don't recall the marketing proposition being anything otherwise, eighties, nineties and so on. Not as you're suggesting.

My take is that Rover were positioned as a luxury alternative to Ford/Vauxhall, albeit with a degree of sportiness (at least until BMW took over and wouldn't allow that). There was no intention to compete with BMW, just to suggest that you got the luxury of the Ghia trim Ford offered with any car in the Rover range. So were they positioned about Ford/Vauxhall? - possibly, but as a way to differentiate from them rather than to be better than them.

I would absolutely agree with the earlier comment about the typical user of a company car only having a choice from the three manufacturers, pretty much the case until the mid 90s for many.

[andyps]

red_rover said:

Who said Rovers were never compared to BMWs?

I'd forgotten that, I must have a copy or two of the reprint (and the original magazine) in my loft.

The 216GSi was a great car. I know it had a Honda engine but the one I had was really good overall, didn't have chance to compare it to a BMW however - see above post for explanation!

[daemon]

I sold Rovers back around 1988.

Didnt ever sell an 800. All i remember is a transporter load of 800's coming from the factory, being parked up in storage, then six months later them being collected again (the dealership had them for six months on a sale or return basis)

I loved them though. Would love a Vitesse Coupe.