RE: PH Carpool: Ferrari 348tb
Discussion
A good review and although I've got a passion for all things 'Ferrari', if I had the money I'ld go for the 355 especially when contemporary road tests weren't very favourable.
Road-testers couldn’t quite match Ferrari’s claimed 5.6 seconds 0-60 mph and 171-mph top speed. Worse, they found the car a challenge to drive near or at the limit. Other shortcomings included a harsh ride, a wandering front end at high speed, and a stiff gearbox.
Then Acura released its NSX, and overnight the equation changed. The Honda-designed midengine V-6 two-seater equaled the Ferrari 348’s performance, had better-balanced road manners, greater comfort, and one-upped Ferrari with superior engineering and build quality. And it cost some $30,000 less.
Well aware of the Ferrari 348’s shortcomings was Ferrari’s new CEO, Luca Cordero di Montezemolo. “I had just bought a new 348,” he said in an interview with Automobile a decade after he took the helm at Ferrari, “and with the exception of its good looks I was utterly disappointed. This was clearly the worst product Ferrari had developed for some time.
Road-testers couldn’t quite match Ferrari’s claimed 5.6 seconds 0-60 mph and 171-mph top speed. Worse, they found the car a challenge to drive near or at the limit. Other shortcomings included a harsh ride, a wandering front end at high speed, and a stiff gearbox.
Then Acura released its NSX, and overnight the equation changed. The Honda-designed midengine V-6 two-seater equaled the Ferrari 348’s performance, had better-balanced road manners, greater comfort, and one-upped Ferrari with superior engineering and build quality. And it cost some $30,000 less.
Well aware of the Ferrari 348’s shortcomings was Ferrari’s new CEO, Luca Cordero di Montezemolo. “I had just bought a new 348,” he said in an interview with Automobile a decade after he took the helm at Ferrari, “and with the exception of its good looks I was utterly disappointed. This was clearly the worst product Ferrari had developed for some time.
the nsx is an awesome bit of kit. it lacks the charm of the f car though.
I too read the Montezemolo article and all I'd say is. The difference between a good and bad 348 is night and day. I tried about 20 when I bought mine. Admitedly mine was a GTS which was a slight step up from the ts/tb but a sorted 348 is a fabulous drive. I thought it a shame montezemolo said that.
I too read the Montezemolo article and all I'd say is. The difference between a good and bad 348 is night and day. I tried about 20 when I bought mine. Admitedly mine was a GTS which was a slight step up from the ts/tb but a sorted 348 is a fabulous drive. I thought it a shame montezemolo said that.
Clarkson loved it back in the day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFXf9FwDaM&fea...
Shame he often contridicts himself later on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFXf9FwDaM&fea...
Shame he often contridicts himself later on.
The early road tests of the 348 hailed it as a wonderful car then Honda came along.
Certain mags still preferred the 348 but couldn't justify the extra cost.
Luca buried it so he could make his mark and make it appear like he completely turned everything around.
Certainly from everything I've read from owners of 348's they get glowing reviews.
Certain mags still preferred the 348 but couldn't justify the extra cost.
Luca buried it so he could make his mark and make it appear like he completely turned everything around.
Certainly from everything I've read from owners of 348's they get glowing reviews.
CAR Magazine did a comparative test of the 348, NSX, Carrera 2 and Lotus Esprit SE in October 1990 and Gavin Green wrote:
"There is no avoiding it: the NSX is a breakthrough, a supercar that furrows new ground. How can a car with so many compelling virtues be anything other than the best? It can't be. And it is. It's better than the Ferrari, and by some margin. And better than the 911, by an even bigger one. Honda has done a formula one, in the supercar field.
Yet, I just don't want one: it's not special enough. It doesn't look that good, to my eye: rather like a poor pastiche of a Ferrari. Honda's boldness seemed to have run out, when it came to the styling. But, much more important, driving the NSX just isn't enough of an event. By exorcising that lovely sensitivity and nervousness endemic in a mid-engined car. Honda has partly negated the point of buying a mid-engine car. It just doesn't interact with you richly enough; it doesn't bewitch you, intoxicate you, and win you over, warts and all.
The 348 and the 911 do. They are special cars, and driving them is a special experience. You will savour every occasion you punt these cars hard on a deserted road, even if you may not be going as fast as the NSX driver. You many have to exert more effort, but so what? That's what sporting cars are supposed to be about. You have to drive the 348 and the 911, instead merely of letting a wonderful car do the work for you.
Of the pair, the Ferrari wins – if you can afford the extra 20-odd thousand pounds, and can wait five years to take delivery. There is nothing like it. It communicates so richly, involves you so completely. And, when you have finished driving it – cocooned in that exquisite cockpit – you can get out and feast your eyes on one of the loveliest cars ever designed."
In the early 90's (probably 92ish) even Clarkson wrote:
"Should the man who wants to spend £76,000 on a motor car buy a Ferrari 348tb? The answer is yes, yes and yes a thousand times.........if the car had been good, or even very good, that would have been enough, but the car is, in fact, a sensation; it makes a laughing stock out of the Honda NSX, and, as far as the BMW 850 is concerned, well, this is like watching one of those nature programs where a whale eats a plankton."
And then in July 1993 Autocar did a comparative test of a 348, NSX and a Lotus Esprit S4 and their verdict was:
"But the further we traveled and the harder we drove in France, the more special, the more unique the Ferrari felt. We argued long and hard over which of the two made the best noise under full throttle, although no one disputed the fact that the NSX was more refined overall and had vastly superior gearchange. But ultimately this is as much the Honda's problem as it is its strength. Because it is so well honed as an all-rounder, so easy to live with, it misses out on that last 10 per cent of pure, raw thoroughbred sports car appeal that makes the Ferrari such a deliciously rich experience.
Partly it is the steering; the NSX's is very good, the 348's exquisite. And partly it is the extra sharpness of the Ferrari's chassis, which is that crucial fraction more responsive to your inputs than not only the NSX but also any other supercar this side of £100,000 we can think of.
Also, when the day is through and you switch off, climb out and glance over your left shoulder on your way up to the front door, the Ferrari will stop you dead in your tracks and force you to stand and stare in awe of its almost sexual beauty. And it'll happen every time you park it. In the Honda you'll probably just smile, then put the key in the lock and close the door behind you. That's enough to justify the extra £17,000 on its own."
So, even the reviews at the time are open to interpretation still about the merits of the NSX over the Ferrari (the Lotus bombed in the above tests unfortunately) but I think the NSX is a great car by the way - however I will keep my Ferrari for now. Mike.
"There is no avoiding it: the NSX is a breakthrough, a supercar that furrows new ground. How can a car with so many compelling virtues be anything other than the best? It can't be. And it is. It's better than the Ferrari, and by some margin. And better than the 911, by an even bigger one. Honda has done a formula one, in the supercar field.
Yet, I just don't want one: it's not special enough. It doesn't look that good, to my eye: rather like a poor pastiche of a Ferrari. Honda's boldness seemed to have run out, when it came to the styling. But, much more important, driving the NSX just isn't enough of an event. By exorcising that lovely sensitivity and nervousness endemic in a mid-engined car. Honda has partly negated the point of buying a mid-engine car. It just doesn't interact with you richly enough; it doesn't bewitch you, intoxicate you, and win you over, warts and all.
The 348 and the 911 do. They are special cars, and driving them is a special experience. You will savour every occasion you punt these cars hard on a deserted road, even if you may not be going as fast as the NSX driver. You many have to exert more effort, but so what? That's what sporting cars are supposed to be about. You have to drive the 348 and the 911, instead merely of letting a wonderful car do the work for you.
Of the pair, the Ferrari wins – if you can afford the extra 20-odd thousand pounds, and can wait five years to take delivery. There is nothing like it. It communicates so richly, involves you so completely. And, when you have finished driving it – cocooned in that exquisite cockpit – you can get out and feast your eyes on one of the loveliest cars ever designed."
In the early 90's (probably 92ish) even Clarkson wrote:
"Should the man who wants to spend £76,000 on a motor car buy a Ferrari 348tb? The answer is yes, yes and yes a thousand times.........if the car had been good, or even very good, that would have been enough, but the car is, in fact, a sensation; it makes a laughing stock out of the Honda NSX, and, as far as the BMW 850 is concerned, well, this is like watching one of those nature programs where a whale eats a plankton."
And then in July 1993 Autocar did a comparative test of a 348, NSX and a Lotus Esprit S4 and their verdict was:
"But the further we traveled and the harder we drove in France, the more special, the more unique the Ferrari felt. We argued long and hard over which of the two made the best noise under full throttle, although no one disputed the fact that the NSX was more refined overall and had vastly superior gearchange. But ultimately this is as much the Honda's problem as it is its strength. Because it is so well honed as an all-rounder, so easy to live with, it misses out on that last 10 per cent of pure, raw thoroughbred sports car appeal that makes the Ferrari such a deliciously rich experience.
Partly it is the steering; the NSX's is very good, the 348's exquisite. And partly it is the extra sharpness of the Ferrari's chassis, which is that crucial fraction more responsive to your inputs than not only the NSX but also any other supercar this side of £100,000 we can think of.
Also, when the day is through and you switch off, climb out and glance over your left shoulder on your way up to the front door, the Ferrari will stop you dead in your tracks and force you to stand and stare in awe of its almost sexual beauty. And it'll happen every time you park it. In the Honda you'll probably just smile, then put the key in the lock and close the door behind you. That's enough to justify the extra £17,000 on its own."
So, even the reviews at the time are open to interpretation still about the merits of the NSX over the Ferrari (the Lotus bombed in the above tests unfortunately) but I think the NSX is a great car by the way - however I will keep my Ferrari for now. Mike.
And so we reach the crux of the discussion.........Desire.........The Testarossa is a dubious piece of s
te but anyone who has driven one will know that the engineering folly that went into the car brings with it a truly interesting driving experience, that creates not only a real challenge, but actually something of a bond between driver and car. If the looks appeal then ownership can be very rewarding. Its faults actually increase desire, for some......not me however!
The 328 is in my opinion a beautiful car that can be owned for that alone which of course includes a kind of visual bloodline that ends with the 288GTO, truly one of the most beautiful cars ever built. Of course for those of us on the more impecunious side of the equation affordability is essential. The classic car mags are predicting that Testarossa prices are on the way up (however beware of bubbles they sometimes burst) so there I suppose is another form of desire, although one that has less of a shine to it.
It is very strange however that desire and the NSX seem to be mutually incompatible despite what I have said above......So am I to conclude that desirability is also therefore manipulated? Surely if Honda had allowed its European representatives to have marketed it differently then perhaps the story would have been different? It IS hard to connect with it, despite the craftsmenship and technology that went into its conception, and to this day Honda advertising is at best...quaint? Perhaps its that V6? Perhaps our prejudice......hmmm our prejudice??
For sure the openness to see something for what it is, is desirability at its most durable.
te but anyone who has driven one will know that the engineering folly that went into the car brings with it a truly interesting driving experience, that creates not only a real challenge, but actually something of a bond between driver and car. If the looks appeal then ownership can be very rewarding. Its faults actually increase desire, for some......not me however!The 328 is in my opinion a beautiful car that can be owned for that alone which of course includes a kind of visual bloodline that ends with the 288GTO, truly one of the most beautiful cars ever built. Of course for those of us on the more impecunious side of the equation affordability is essential. The classic car mags are predicting that Testarossa prices are on the way up (however beware of bubbles they sometimes burst) so there I suppose is another form of desire, although one that has less of a shine to it.
It is very strange however that desire and the NSX seem to be mutually incompatible despite what I have said above......So am I to conclude that desirability is also therefore manipulated? Surely if Honda had allowed its European representatives to have marketed it differently then perhaps the story would have been different? It IS hard to connect with it, despite the craftsmenship and technology that went into its conception, and to this day Honda advertising is at best...quaint? Perhaps its that V6? Perhaps our prejudice......hmmm our prejudice??
For sure the openness to see something for what it is, is desirability at its most durable.
I think the NSX isn't desireable simply because it isn't quirky enough.
As someone on here said, its the failings or foibles of supercars which ovtne endear them to us.
If the NSX had had a raucous exhaust, a slightly awkward driving position and a something daft like suicide doors, I think it'd be a lot more popular now...
Just my 2c
As someone on here said, its the failings or foibles of supercars which ovtne endear them to us.
If the NSX had had a raucous exhaust, a slightly awkward driving position and a something daft like suicide doors, I think it'd be a lot more popular now...
Just my 2c
JohnG1 said:
Ipelm said:
Philosophy
I grew up watching Miami Vice. I had a Testarossa poster on my wall and I rememeber when mobile phones were the size of a housebrick.I drive a modern proper V12 powered supercar. But I still want a Testarossa. Even though it's not a great car...
Ipelm, you had asked a question earlier about chassis stiffness and if the choice of a coupe was deliberate, no it wasn't, the car was bought on impulse - or desire if you like - as per the point eloquently made by yourself below, the fact the car had a roof and was therefore well suited to what I use it for most now, was incidental at the time of purchase.
I think you have neatly returned us to the original theme of the thread, in as much as I wrote "like most blokes I had thought about having a Ferrari in the garage one day" - a Ferrari, not a Honda - and as good as the NSX undoubtedly is, I don't personally desire one. This seemed to be the view of the road testers of the day and is indeed the point you make now (although I'm sure that with the passage of time there are lots more people who now covet the NSX).
Regards the Testorossa, although the 348 is often referred to as the baby Testorossa, when compared together the differences are very significant, the obvious one being size. You could probably run a light aircraft for less than a Testorossa too, but within the Ferrari family it would certainly be more desirable than it's little sister:
This thread is probably running out of steam now but its been informative and enjoyable - thanks all - Mike.
I think you have neatly returned us to the original theme of the thread, in as much as I wrote "like most blokes I had thought about having a Ferrari in the garage one day" - a Ferrari, not a Honda - and as good as the NSX undoubtedly is, I don't personally desire one. This seemed to be the view of the road testers of the day and is indeed the point you make now (although I'm sure that with the passage of time there are lots more people who now covet the NSX).
Regards the Testorossa, although the 348 is often referred to as the baby Testorossa, when compared together the differences are very significant, the obvious one being size. You could probably run a light aircraft for less than a Testorossa too, but within the Ferrari family it would certainly be more desirable than it's little sister:
This thread is probably running out of steam now but its been informative and enjoyable - thanks all - Mike.
JohnG1 said:
Too much want.
That is beautiful...
It was indeed a lovely car, though we were quite miffed when he got it as we thought we were the only 348 owners in the village! That is beautiful...
It was amusing that we met Simonigrale through PH, but he only lives round the corner!Glad (and not) that others are beginning to see this car as something good rather than rehashing the usual crap. Miss ours a lot actually.
Trace
I had a 348 for a little more than 20 years, and loved it. All the talk about foul handling is basically rubbish. With a few tweaks , a bit of practice and a good driving school, its a piece of cake.
The 348 is a classic Ferrari that rewards smoothness and skill, and spits the poseurs out. Just as Enzo would have had it.
The 348 is a classic Ferrari that rewards smoothness and skill, and spits the poseurs out. Just as Enzo would have had it.
mikebrownhill said:
You could probably run a light aircraft for less than a Testorossa too, but within the Ferrari family it would certainly be more desirable than it's little sister
Thats a bit of a myth about the testarossa, the flat-12 in the TR is a truly great engine with little issues if maintained well. In fact if you look at service pricing, there isn't a huge gap between any of the models and in fact for a "minor" the TR is one of the cheapest you can own:http://www.verdi-ferrari.com/ferrari_servicing.php
If it does go wrong, sure parts have ferrari prices, but its somewhat old, uncomplicated and easy to work on (and certainly very accessible in that huge engine bay).
Mike.
You are spot on when you say that any comparison between the 348 and the TR is superflous. I do believe (and I am prepared to be corrected on this, my memory is not 100%) that the 348 was the first Ferrari whose chassis was constructed with 'box-sections.' This new technique (to Ferrari at the time) probably accounts for some of the handling characteristics that you describe. These were later 'massaged out' with further development, which as you say could be also improved by fitting some new parts.
Its great that you love the car and are getting a lot of satisfaction out of owning it. Actually having re-read the above it occurs to me that our respective choice of cars have something of this in common. Both are the black sheep of the family (say the 'marque experts') and both respond hugely to a bit of intelligent update and TLC.
Ian
You are spot on when you say that any comparison between the 348 and the TR is superflous. I do believe (and I am prepared to be corrected on this, my memory is not 100%) that the 348 was the first Ferrari whose chassis was constructed with 'box-sections.' This new technique (to Ferrari at the time) probably accounts for some of the handling characteristics that you describe. These were later 'massaged out' with further development, which as you say could be also improved by fitting some new parts.
Its great that you love the car and are getting a lot of satisfaction out of owning it. Actually having re-read the above it occurs to me that our respective choice of cars have something of this in common. Both are the black sheep of the family (say the 'marque experts') and both respond hugely to a bit of intelligent update and TLC.
Ian
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