RE: PH Blog: blind faith

[J4CKO]

The trouble is the hysterical luddites will, when the ineviatable crash happen's between computer guided cars will then call for them to be banned, whilst we insist on being fragile bags of guts that travel round at speeds our bodies are not designed to cope with in the event of a coming together then there will always be collisions that result in death or injury.

The question should not be whether the electronics, software and sensors are prone to getting it wrong, it should be down to how much it gets it wrong in comparison to human drivers, which at a guess I expect once developed will be much less, they wont drive drunk, tired, grumpy, distracted or get aggressive, they have no ego or point to proove, the dont lack experience or think they are infallible, they dont read Evo or think they are a driving God.

Like it or not its going to happen, its going to be interesting.

What will we do with all the Taxi drivers ?

[anonymous-user]

The simple fact of the matter is that both in the aeronautical and the automotive arena, more passenger miles are now travelled without injury or death than ever before.
By removing the routine control descisions from humans (who get bored/ fall asleep / get distracted) the overall system saftey is improved.
However, at the end of the day no system, be that biological, electronic, mechanical or any combination of the three, can ever function with a 100% safety record. Eventually, a set of circumstances will occur to which the system is unable to respond in a timely and accurate manner, and a crash will result. At that point, it is ever so easy to simply blame the computers, just like we used to blame the pilots for most things, but as ever, it is the combination and perculiar alignment and juxtaposition of the circumstances that actually lead to the event itself.

The really dangerous part is actually the fact that a human will put their entire faith in an electronic system without understanding a) how it works, and b) what it's limitations are ! To use the stability control example, if i stuck you in the passenger seat of a nice powerful rwd car, lets say an M3 or something, and said "see that guy on your right driving, yup the one in the mask? He's gonna powerslide you and the car around this track". Now if the mysterious driver unmasks himself and it turns out to be, say Tiffany Dell or Jason Potato, most people in the passenger seat would have an understanding on the relative level of risk they were now taking. However if it turned out to be Mr Blobby, i think you'be be a whole lot less confident in allowing him to drive you !!

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

[Scuffers]

Well said.

Max_Torque said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

it's worse than that, realistically, an ever increasing number of people on our roads do not have the requisite skills to drive safely/properly.

[Bonefish Blues]

Scuffers said:

Well said.

Max_Torque said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

it's worse than that, realistically, an ever increasing number of people on our roads do not have the requisite skills to drive safely/properly.

Having said that, I noticed a review on the new small Seat last night, which has an emergency braking system if it detects a crash is about to happen.

Can't see a downside to this level of intervention, preventing what would otherwise be inevitable..

[Blown2CV]

this was the subject of my undergrad thesis - it can't be 100% reliable, but the problem is not one of user trust, which would occur above a certain level of reliability. The problem is that even one single accident in a million found to be caused by the absolute inevitable failure in such a system would be dived upon by the media, and might possibly even destroy the car brand concerned.

[Patrick Bateman]

Scary article that, to think how easily preventable is was the whole time.

[Piepiepie]

I always turn ESP off.

It gets in the way, it panics, it interferes when i dont want it to, and takes some control away from me when i don't want it to.

I'm driving the car dammit, not you!

[Scuffers]

Bonefish Blues said:

Scuffers said:

Well said.

Max_Torque said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

it's worse than that, realistically, an ever increasing number of people on our roads do not have the requisite skills to drive safely/properly.

Having said that, I noticed a review on the new small Seat last night, which has an emergency braking system if it detects a crash is about to happen.

Can't see a downside to this level of intervention, preventing what would otherwise be inevitable..

Our S4 has this to, and all I can say s I hate it to the point it's now turned off.

if you ever get in a car with it, try overtaking a slow truck at speed and see what happens....

[anonymous-user]

Piepiepie said:

I always turn ESP off.

It gets in the way, it panics, it interferes when i dont want it to, and takes some control away from me when i don't want it to.

I'm driving the car dammit, not you!

I pretty much NEVER turn ESP off.


Unless you have 3 extra brake pedals installed (and some surgery to get some extra feet to operate them) then the yaw authority that ESP can apply is so far above that of which can be applied by the driver with the conventional controls it literally might be the difference between life and death.

For the majority of modern ESP systems, unless you want to showboat (and lets face it, we all like a bit of showboating occasionally!) then if your are a smooth driver the systems rarely get in the way.

(note: some ESP's are better than others, and th eolder the system the more intrusive it is likely to be)

[s m]

Thought this was going to be about the retro BMWs and Fords in the recent Chase and Status video

[CJE]

Max_Torque said:

Piepiepie said:

I always turn ESP off.

It gets in the way, it panics, it interferes when i dont want it to, and takes some control away from me when i don't want it to.

I'm driving the car dammit, not you!

I pretty much NEVER turn ESP off.


Unless you have 3 extra brake pedals installed (and some surgery to get some extra feet to operate them) then the yaw authority that ESP can apply is so far above that of which can be applied by the driver with the conventional controls it literally might be the difference between life and death.

For the majority of modern ESP systems, unless you want to showboat (and lets face it, we all like a bit of showboating occasionally!) then if your are a smooth driver the systems rarely get in the way.

(note: some ESP's are better than others, and th eolder the system the more intrusive it is likely to be)

Aye some ESP and TC systems can be a little keen (cheaper brands or when trying to protect mechanical components perhaps not as beefed up) but you still have to be provoking them a fair amount to even reach the threshold. Remember that when your TC (traction control) or especially your ESP (electronic stability programme) have kicked in it means one or more of your contact patches are compromised (or your body rotation rate could induced a full vehicle roll over) and will no longer offer the lateral or longitudinal grip required to keep the vehicle safe or stable.

So if your reaching this level of your vehicles performance envelope on the road consider what happens if an unexpected hazard appears. If your already at the limits of your grip you have a reduced options or ability to avoid it.

I work for a team who develop active safety systems for vehicles, similar to the ones mentioned in the article, so knowing the effort we go to and the realities of the situations they help improve it always makes me cringe when I see people claiming they turn these systems off all the time and makes me wonder exactly how they are choosing to drive on the roads myself and my family share with them?

Turing off the electronics to slide round with a grin on your face is why God gave us air fields, rally stages and grass track events and all are definitely worth doing

[Blown2CV]

ESP isn't the same type of thing this article is about. We are talking about driving automation technologies where the human is taken out of the control loop, and is forced to become a monitor; which humans are very poor at being. ESP is an assistance technology which doesn't really change the driving task. Assistance techs do improve safety as there is no real trade-off

[Piepiepie]

CJE said:

Aye some ESP and TC systems can be a little keen (cheaper brands or when trying to protect mechanical components perhaps not as beefed up) but you still have to be provoking them a fair amount to even reach the threshold. Remember that when your TC (traction control) or especially your ESP (electronic stability programme) have kicked in it means one or more of your contact patches are compromised (or your body rotation rate could induced a full vehicle roll over) and will no longer offer the lateral or longitudinal grip required to keep the vehicle safe or stable.

So if your reaching this level of your vehicles performance envelope on the road consider what happens if an unexpected hazard appears. If your already at the limits of your grip you have a reduced options or ability to avoid it.

I work for a team who develop active safety systems for vehicles, similar to the ones mentioned in the article, so knowing the effort we go to and the realities of the situations they help improve it always makes me cringe when I see people claiming they turn these systems off all the time and makes me wonder exactly how they are choosing to drive on the roads myself and my family share with them?

Turing off the electronics to slide round with a grin on your face is why God gave us air fields, rally stages and grass track events and all are definitely worth doing

Maybe im getting confused, but my experiance of ESP, when hooning into a roundabout on the wet, is to basically jam on the N/S/F wheel brake and offer me more understeer than i could eat in a year.

[KM666]

CJE said:

Aye some ESP and TC systems can be a little keen (cheaper brands or when trying to protect mechanical components perhaps not as beefed up) but you still have to be provoking them a fair amount to even reach the threshold. Remember that when your TC (traction control) or especially your ESP (electronic stability programme) have kicked in it means one or more of your contact patches are compromised (or your body rotation rate could induced a full vehicle roll over) and will no longer offer the lateral or longitudinal grip required to keep the vehicle safe or stable.

So if your reaching this level of your vehicles performance envelope on the road consider what happens if an unexpected hazard appears. If your already at the limits of your grip you have a reduced options or ability to avoid it.

I work for a team who develop active safety systems for vehicles, similar to the ones mentioned in the article, so knowing the effort we go to and the realities of the situations they help improve it always makes me cringe when I see people claiming they turn these systems off all the time and makes me wonder exactly how they are choosing to drive on the roads myself and my family share with them?

Turing off the electronics to slide round with a grin on your face is why God gave us air fields, rally stages and grass track events and all are definitely worth doing

But all that sounds like it would ruin your chances of doing this....

[666 SVT]

One word VOLVO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg&fea...

[CJE]

666 SVT said:

One word VOLVO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg&fea...

Ha ha the perennial Volvo fail , poor buggers.

In the case of the Merc vid with a similar ending I believe the system simply wasn't turned on (?), but for the Volvo one above the most plausible reason we've heard for the failure is that due to the radars view of the truck changing as it approached, the point it viewed as the target also moved. This in the systems mind made the target implausible so it ignored it.

You can see a similar effect if you've used some radar guided cruise control systems, especially the earlier ones, there can occasionally be odd behaviour or changes to the distance kept when behind large trucks or car transporters. Modern multi radar and camera systems with better algorithms largely stop this.

[CJE]

Piepiepie said:

CJE said:

Aye some ESP and TC systems can be a little keen (cheaper brands or when trying to protect mechanical components perhaps not as beefed up) but you still have to be provoking them a fair amount to even reach the threshold. Remember that when your TC (traction control) or especially your ESP (electronic stability programme) have kicked in it means one or more of your contact patches are compromised (or your body rotation rate could induced a full vehicle roll over) and will no longer offer the lateral or longitudinal grip required to keep the vehicle safe or stable.

So if your reaching this level of your vehicles performance envelope on the road consider what happens if an unexpected hazard appears. If your already at the limits of your grip you have a reduced options or ability to avoid it.

I work for a team who develop active safety systems for vehicles, similar to the ones mentioned in the article, so knowing the effort we go to and the realities of the situations they help improve it always makes me cringe when I see people claiming they turn these systems off all the time and makes me wonder exactly how they are choosing to drive on the roads myself and my family share with them?

Turing off the electronics to slide round with a grin on your face is why God gave us air fields, rally stages and grass track events and all are definitely worth doing

Maybe im getting confused, but my experiance of ESP, when hooning into a roundabout on the wet, is to basically jam on the N/S/F wheel brake and offer me more understeer than i could eat in a year.

Cos its safer to crash forwards with all the benefits of crumple zones, air bags and belts than let the tail step out and put you backwards or sideways into something. ESP will kick in before this can happen as indicated by the individual wheel speeds and vehicle yaw rate.

Taking the power away from the front wheel (causing the U/S) stops you adding more speed. Braking the wheel (more U/S!) slides the tyre removing that point of grip preventing the car from further pivoting around that point into possible over steer or even a roll over but the car keeps pointing in the direction of travel (not necessarily the same direction as your front wheels).

ESP doesn't shuffle the power around between the wheels for you to drive through a situation better, that's done by clever diffs and torque vectoring etc. ESP stabilises the car forward to reduce the yaw once it reckons things have gone wrong.

So from the cars point of view when your on your wet roundabout trying to corner in a manner that could make you enter dangerous oversteer (remember it doesn't know you can control it, its programmed for Joe Public) it acts to slow you down and keep you pointing forwards, the safest direction if your going to crash cos things have gone that badly.

Remember this all only happens when levels of grip are compromised so you really are pushing at the safe limits of the cars traction when the ESP light starts to flash.

Does any of that make sense or was I just going round in circles?

[paranoid airbag]

Patrick Bateman said:

Scary article that, to think how easily preventable is was the whole time.

Slightly different meaning to yours I suspect, but that's the mark of a good safety system - multiple backups, both human and electronic, had to fail for the crash to occur.

Blown2CV said:

this was the subject of my undergrad thesis - it can't be 100% reliable, but the problem is not one of user trust, which would occur above a certain level of reliability. The problem is that even one single accident in a million found to be caused by the absolute inevitable failure in such a system would be dived upon by the media, and might possibly even destroy the car brand concerned.

when a crash is user error, it's easy to sweep this under the carpet by saying 'It'll never happen to me, I'm a good driver'. Remove that psychological comfort blanket - and that's all it is, driving gods, a childish accessory that should have been discarded years ago - and people worry.

Max_Torque said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

True, but it seems to be human nature that when presented with a tool we'll start to rely on it, thus partly negating its benefit. Even so, for every driver who genuinely improved through a lack of driver aids, there'll be many others who simply drove around in much the same way, but with a greater danger of crashing. Runaways are an example - how hard is it to stop a car with a stuck throttle? And yet, people are bad at it, both with and without technological aids. The difference is, with the latter they've got somethinge to blame

[Bonefish Blues]

Scuffers said:

Bonefish Blues said:

Scuffers said:

Well said.

Max_Torque said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

it's worse than that, realistically, an ever increasing number of people on our roads do not have the requisite skills to drive safely/properly.

Having said that, I noticed a review on the new small Seat last night, which has an emergency braking system if it detects a crash is about to happen.

Can't see a downside to this level of intervention, preventing what would otherwise be inevitable..

Our S4 has this to, and all I can say s I hate it to the point it's now turned off.

if you ever get in a car with it, try overtaking a slow truck at speed and see what happens....

Hmmm, mixed feelings about this - presumably the system "sees" you accelerating at pace towards an object and intervenes?

If you were in the overtake position this would not be the case though, as the truck wouldn't be in its line of sight.

[Scuffers]

Bonefish Blues said:

Scuffers said:

Bonefish Blues said:

Scuffers said:

Well said.

Max_Torque said:

The simple fact of the matter is that most drivers have not be taught how DSC etc works (even ABS tbh!) and this is where we are going wrong!!

it's worse than that, realistically, an ever increasing number of people on our roads do not have the requisite skills to drive safely/properly.

Having said that, I noticed a review on the new small Seat last night, which has an emergency braking system if it detects a crash is about to happen.

Can't see a downside to this level of intervention, preventing what would otherwise be inevitable..

Our S4 has this to, and all I can say s I hate it to the point it's now turned off.

if you ever get in a car with it, try overtaking a slow truck at speed and see what happens....

Hmmm, mixed feelings about this - presumably the system "sees" you accelerating at pace towards an object and intervenes?

If you were in the overtake position this would not be the case though, as the truck wouldn't be in its line of sight.

That's pretty much it, next thing you know, its slammed the brakes on hard, your on the wrong side of the road etc etc.