RE: PH Blog: blind faith
Discussion
I had a particularly scary moment when a primitive ESP system caught and recified a slide at the same time as I applied opposite lock causing an unexpected tank slapper. Either solution would have worked in isolation but not together. In my book you should never use these systems in normal driving on the road. If you want to have a lairy tail out moment, turn them off first so you are in control (no not) and drive within your tallent. Recognise your tallent is less than Jenson Button and pace things appropriatly.
I seem to remember some chap being taken for a high speed drive through central France by his Vel Satis after its electronics locked him out, around 2004 I think. I work in the aerospace industry, one of our guys met some people from the auto industry a couple of years ago, said he was surprised at how little they understood about system redundancy and reversion modes. Pilots go through a lot of training and aircraft type approval to fly a modern aircraft, can't imagine a car driver is ever likely to do the same....
As mentioned, ABS, TC and ESP can't really be included in the same category as Autopilot. They're very much assistance systems there to help the 'average' driver. Remember of course that 90% or more of those on our roads will have never had any kind of driver training and most will have never experienced a limit/over limit event. The average tolerance to G-Force is somewhere below 0.5G....well below the actual limit of a tyre, so when they have to take avoiding action or they hit a patch of water/ice, most will have no idea how to react if the car steps sideways or understeers. ESP is there to help stabilise the car in this kind of situation and if anything, the more experienced you are, the better the system will react anyway.
As for failure modes....as far as I'm aware, all systems these days have some pretty complex logic in them that compares all the various sensors against each other. If it sees something that doesn't seem plausible (like one wheel going considerably faster than another for an extended period of time or a yaw sensor reading zero) they will either go in to some kind of backup mode which will be extremely conservative or it'll turn off. Either way, it will light up the dash like a Christmas tree and/or display a multitude of messages telling you that ABS, TC, ESP, Cruise Control etc etc aren't available. The car won't be dangerous without them....but the driver obviously won't have that added layer of assistance 'just in case'. Hence you'd want to get it sorted!
Personally...I'd always choose to drive with systems on. Ultimately....you shouldn't really be driving fast enough on the road to be activating them and if you really want to explore the limits, book a track day!
As for failure modes....as far as I'm aware, all systems these days have some pretty complex logic in them that compares all the various sensors against each other. If it sees something that doesn't seem plausible (like one wheel going considerably faster than another for an extended period of time or a yaw sensor reading zero) they will either go in to some kind of backup mode which will be extremely conservative or it'll turn off. Either way, it will light up the dash like a Christmas tree and/or display a multitude of messages telling you that ABS, TC, ESP, Cruise Control etc etc aren't available. The car won't be dangerous without them....but the driver obviously won't have that added layer of assistance 'just in case'. Hence you'd want to get it sorted!
Personally...I'd always choose to drive with systems on. Ultimately....you shouldn't really be driving fast enough on the road to be activating them and if you really want to explore the limits, book a track day!
ArosaMike said:
As mentioned, ABS, TC and ESP can't really be included in the same category as Autopilot. They're very much assistance systems there to help the 'average' driver. Remember of course that 90% or more of those on our roads will have never had any kind of driver training and most will have never experienced a limit/over limit event. The average tolerance to G-Force is somewhere below 0.5G....well below the actual limit of a tyre, so when they have to take avoiding action or they hit a patch of water/ice, most will have no idea how to react if the car steps sideways or understeers. ESP is there to help stabilise the car in this kind of situation and if anything, the more experienced you are, the better the system will react anyway.
As for failure modes....as far as I'm aware, all systems these days have some pretty complex logic in them that compares all the various sensors against each other. If it sees something that doesn't seem plausible (like one wheel going considerably faster than another for an extended period of time or a yaw sensor reading zero) they will either go in to some kind of backup mode which will be extremely conservative or it'll turn off. Either way, it will light up the dash like a Christmas tree and/or display a multitude of messages telling you that ABS, TC, ESP, Cruise Control etc etc aren't available. The car won't be dangerous without them....but the driver obviously won't have that added layer of assistance 'just in case'. Hence you'd want to get it sorted!
Personally...I'd always choose to drive with systems on. Ultimately....you shouldn't really be driving fast enough on the road to be activating them and if you really want to explore the limits, book a track day!
I don't have an issue with that list, and tend to agree with you, however, the brake-guard etc stuff is borderline dangerous, for two reasons:As for failure modes....as far as I'm aware, all systems these days have some pretty complex logic in them that compares all the various sensors against each other. If it sees something that doesn't seem plausible (like one wheel going considerably faster than another for an extended period of time or a yaw sensor reading zero) they will either go in to some kind of backup mode which will be extremely conservative or it'll turn off. Either way, it will light up the dash like a Christmas tree and/or display a multitude of messages telling you that ABS, TC, ESP, Cruise Control etc etc aren't available. The car won't be dangerous without them....but the driver obviously won't have that added layer of assistance 'just in case'. Hence you'd want to get it sorted!
Personally...I'd always choose to drive with systems on. Ultimately....you shouldn't really be driving fast enough on the road to be activating them and if you really want to explore the limits, book a track day!
1) people will believe it will save them and drive accordingly
2) in their current form, they are far from being unfailable, they are at best, guessing, until they can 'see' everything around you, they are never going to be 100%.
Scuffers said:
1) people will believe it will save them and drive accordingly
A few people may, but in the experience of anyone who given any driver training to the general public, the majority either don't know their car has ESP/don't know what it does or don't realise what it can actually do. Those that do know their car has it, will still tend to only brake in a straight line when faced with something to avoid. They don't actually realise you can brake and steer around it safely (something which would be difficult with ABS and almost suicidal with a 'passive' car). Hence the public actually don't rely on the systems enough!Remember also, that to drive in a way that relies on the systems would mean you'd be at the very least on limit. Most drivers will never be anywhere near this.
Scuffers said:
2) in their current form, they are far from being unfailable, they are at best, guessing, until they can 'see' everything around you, they are never going to be 100%.
Not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean component failure or an ability to do something like spin the car under power? In my experience, you can be incredibly abusive (sidestepping the clutch whilst cornering for instance) and the system will still catch the slide.ArosaMike said:
Not sure what you mean by this? Do you mean component failure or an ability to do something like spin the car under power? In my experience, you can be incredibly abusive (sidestepping the clutch whilst cornering for instance) and the system will still catch the slide.
you have failed to read what I posted.I was not talking about ESP etc....
ArosaMike said:
Sorry...re-read and, possibly because I may be being dim, still can't see what system you were talking about. Not sure what you mean by 'Brake Guard' either.
brake-guard - these anti-collision systems that detect your about to crash and brake.eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg
Scuffers said:
brake-guard - these anti-collision systems that detect your about to crash and brake.
eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg
Ah...you mean the collision avoidance things. Totally separate system to ABS etc which is what I was talking about in the post of mine you quoted. Even with those though, they're set-up in such a way that they can't fail if they're on an actual production car. Remember that the demo's shown by Volvo are development systems without all the fail safes that legislation requires. Remember too that you're car most likely has an electronic throttle. Theoretically it could jam open of it's own accord, but there are enough failsafes and failure strategies to prevent it from happening. Basically, if the system detects even the slightest possibility of failure, it won't work!eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg
ArosaMike said:
Scuffers said:
brake-guard - these anti-collision systems that detect your about to crash and brake.
eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg
Ah...you mean the collision avoidance things. Totally separate system to ABS etc which is what I was talking about in the post of mine you quoted. Even with those though, they're set-up in such a way that they can't fail if they're on an actual production car. Remember that the demo's shown by Volvo are development systems without all the fail safes that legislation requires. Remember too that you're car most likely has an electronic throttle. Theoretically it could jam open of it's own accord, but there are enough failsafes and failure strategies to prevent it from happening. Basically, if the system detects even the slightest possibility of failure, it won't work!eg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNi17YLnZpg
oagent said:
I had a particularly scary moment when a primitive ESP system caught and recified a slide at the same time as I applied opposite lock causing an unexpected tank slapper. Either solution would have worked in isolation but not together. In my book you should never use these systems in normal driving on the road. If you want to have a lairy tail out moment, turn them off first so you are in control (no not) and drive within your tallent. Recognise your tallent is less than Jenson Button and pace things appropriatly.
I'm afraid it's actually more likely that you over corrected. All ESP systems actually need you to turn in to the skid to effectively counter the slide. If you don't it won't know there's actually anything particularly wrong as all it sees is a yaw moment and a lateral acceleration. Until you turn in, it has to guess. Had you had the system turned off, you would have still got in to a tank slapper, but you wouldn't have recovered it!ArosaMike said:
I'm afraid it's actually more likely that you over corrected. All ESP systems actually need you to turn in to the skid to effectively counter the slide. If you don't it won't know there's actually anything particularly wrong as all it sees is a yaw moment and a lateral acceleration. Until you turn in, it has to guess. Had you had the system turned off, you would have still got in to a tank slapper, but you wouldn't have recovered it!
arhhh!!!!how hard work does this have to be?
STOP TALKING ABOUT ESP!
I cant wait for these systems to come in.
They will be a blessing for a variety of people, eg blind. My wife is vision impaired, and not allowed to drive a car. I just imagine all the things she will be able to do above what she can manage currently. We all take cars for granted, but for her, its just not possible.
You can imagine how your lives would be different without having access to a car, so the sooner this comes out, the better (for my wife).
I also think there are a lot of people who wouldnt be alive today, if it werent for advances in systems. Some of these people are also quite possibly some who think they are "driving gods", and are alive today in complete blissful ignorance. Not to mention the family they might otherwise have ploughed into.
And I also wonder what will happen to the many thousands of people involved in driving for a living. Johnny Cab, anyone?
They will be a blessing for a variety of people, eg blind. My wife is vision impaired, and not allowed to drive a car. I just imagine all the things she will be able to do above what she can manage currently. We all take cars for granted, but for her, its just not possible.
You can imagine how your lives would be different without having access to a car, so the sooner this comes out, the better (for my wife).
I also think there are a lot of people who wouldnt be alive today, if it werent for advances in systems. Some of these people are also quite possibly some who think they are "driving gods", and are alive today in complete blissful ignorance. Not to mention the family they might otherwise have ploughed into.
And I also wonder what will happen to the many thousands of people involved in driving for a living. Johnny Cab, anyone?
CJE said:
Cos its safer to crash forwards with all the benefits of crumple zones, air bags and belts than let the tail step out and put you backwards or sideways into something. ESP will kick in before this can happen as indicated by the individual wheel speeds and vehicle yaw rate.
Taking the power away from the front wheel (causing the U/S) stops you adding more speed. Braking the wheel (more U/S!) slides the tyre removing that point of grip preventing the car from further pivoting around that point into possible over steer or even a roll over but the car keeps pointing in the direction of travel (not necessarily the same direction as your front wheels).
ESP doesn't shuffle the power around between the wheels for you to drive through a situation better, that's done by clever diffs and torque vectoring etc. ESP stabilises the car forward to reduce the yaw once it reckons things have gone wrong.
So from the cars point of view when your on your wet roundabout trying to corner in a manner that could make you enter dangerous oversteer (remember it doesn't know you can control it, its programmed for Joe Public) it acts to slow you down and keep you pointing forwards, the safest direction if your going to crash cos things have gone that badly.
Remember this all only happens when levels of grip are compromised so you really are pushing at the safe limits of the cars traction when the ESP light starts to flash.
Does any of that make sense or was I just going round in circles?
No no, i've got it now, i understand Taking the power away from the front wheel (causing the U/S) stops you adding more speed. Braking the wheel (more U/S!) slides the tyre removing that point of grip preventing the car from further pivoting around that point into possible over steer or even a roll over but the car keeps pointing in the direction of travel (not necessarily the same direction as your front wheels).
ESP doesn't shuffle the power around between the wheels for you to drive through a situation better, that's done by clever diffs and torque vectoring etc. ESP stabilises the car forward to reduce the yaw once it reckons things have gone wrong.
So from the cars point of view when your on your wet roundabout trying to corner in a manner that could make you enter dangerous oversteer (remember it doesn't know you can control it, its programmed for Joe Public) it acts to slow you down and keep you pointing forwards, the safest direction if your going to crash cos things have gone that badly.
Remember this all only happens when levels of grip are compromised so you really are pushing at the safe limits of the cars traction when the ESP light starts to flash.
Does any of that make sense or was I just going round in circles?
Max_Torque said:
I pretty much NEVER turn ESP off.
Unless you have 3 extra brake pedals installed (and some surgery to get some extra feet to operate them) then the yaw authority that ESP can apply is so far above that of which can be applied by the driver with the conventional controls it literally might be the difference between life and death.
And in this way, electronic driver aids treat the symptom and not the cause. I don't go around thanking my driver aids from saving me from death, I thank me for saving me from death, with or without them. Unless you have 3 extra brake pedals installed (and some surgery to get some extra feet to operate them) then the yaw authority that ESP can apply is so far above that of which can be applied by the driver with the conventional controls it literally might be the difference between life and death.
If you're relying it, you're either a lunatic or a desperately s
t operator of a vehicle. They are a supplementary safety device. You're the primary one, and supplementary safety devices are only required when the primary one, fails. if ESP goes wrong, you aren't going to crash the car and die. Whether it is on or off still requires that the driver drives the car, and pretty much in the same way aswell. It doesn't change the driving task. The issue at question here is one that significantly changes the driving task such that the car takes on one of those aspects of it. This doesn't just remove the need for the driver to do something, as the manufacturers would hope or would want us to believe, it moves us to a position where we need to monitor the performance of that task instead. This means, we need to keep an eye on the car to make sure it is performing correctly because we know that systems like automated cruise control could in theory go wrong for many reasons. Say you bought a 10 year old merc in 2025, would you rely on this system? The overly concerned monitoring required would detract significantly from the other aspects of the driving task.
I'm firmly of the opinion that there is no cure for stupid, and accidents blamed on computers are merely alternative, more unlikely manifestations of what is essentially inevitable when you put someone who is essentially thick in charge of a system.
The only difference is that the stupidity has to travel further down the fault tree.
The only difference is that the stupidity has to travel further down the fault tree.
The only cure for stupid is to take the human out of the loop, and this brings a whole other set of problems, which on aggregate it is hard to see will bring about an overall better or worse situation. Generally automation is a good thing and bringing it in is progress; BUT automation in safety critical systems is definitely a grey area. Technology advances and adoption generally move ahead of where they 'should' be, with technology being sent prime-time without really being ironed out properly; or worse, being made to get it in under a budget.
Much like Blown2CV, I've had to do a lot of thinking about autonomous systems (not just for cars). Not many of us (and definately not me) will be old enough to remember when proper automatic systems were brought in, but it took a long time for the public to gain trust in them. For instance, when automatic lifts were introduced (where you could just press a button and the lift would automatically go to the floor requested (even if the doors were not even automatic then)), people refused to use them unless there was a lift attendant pressing the buttons for them! Now, we accept them as safe. We will probably go through the same process with autonomous systems - infact, we already are with some of London's tube trains, which are perfectly capable of operating autonomously, and yet it has been deemed that the public is not yet ready for a driverless train (DLR not withstanding for some reason).
It is also important to think about the 'whole system' in the widest possible sense to get a grip on the benefits. An autonomous car may not seem that safe in itself, but as part of a whole system, including the potential safety failings of a human driver, the overall system performance is likely to be higher. A similar argument rages over the use of armed robots in war zones to enter and clear buildings. Upside - reduces the risk for a human soldier. Downside - can it make the right choices about who to shoot and who not to shoot? Interesting question - but when the alternative might be a 19yr old on his first deployment in a mild to severe state of panic - the relative performance of the systems becomes a little clearer.
BTW - the AF crash was a shocking case of lack of training for the pilots involved who were unable to recognise the situation they found themselves in. The official accident report was very critical of Air France's training regime.
It is also important to think about the 'whole system' in the widest possible sense to get a grip on the benefits. An autonomous car may not seem that safe in itself, but as part of a whole system, including the potential safety failings of a human driver, the overall system performance is likely to be higher. A similar argument rages over the use of armed robots in war zones to enter and clear buildings. Upside - reduces the risk for a human soldier. Downside - can it make the right choices about who to shoot and who not to shoot? Interesting question - but when the alternative might be a 19yr old on his first deployment in a mild to severe state of panic - the relative performance of the systems becomes a little clearer.
BTW - the AF crash was a shocking case of lack of training for the pilots involved who were unable to recognise the situation they found themselves in. The official accident report was very critical of Air France's training regime.
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