Lotus To Be Offloaded by Proton?
Discussion
10 Pence Short said:
Lotus will either survive as a niche brand within a VAG type conglomerate, pushing out cars that share technology with the rest of the portfolio, or it should stop trying to mass-build cars of its own and specialise in what it's good at- consultancy and specialist development for other manufacturers.
It could end up doing both. As I understand it there has never been a particularly strong link between Lotus Cars and Lotus Engineering; I could easily see the engineering division surviving as a stand-alone consultancy group and the car company being absorbed into a big company. Whatever it ends up doing, I can't see it being of much interest to its recent customer base. I think it very unlikely that I'll ever buy another Lotus.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 3rd January 15:23
Ved said:
The problem Lotus has is that they are a very niche player with a very long and very bad reputation for quality and worst of all, there are better cars for the money - not that anyone has any.
I think the problem is rather that the aspects in which they are the best cars for the money are not particularly important to many of the buyers of sportscar shaped objects, and the compromises Lotus makes in order to excel in those aspects are unpalatable to said buyers.10 Pence Short said:
Lotus will either survive as a niche brand within a VAG type conglomerate, pushing out cars that share technology with the rest of the portfolio, or it should stop trying to mass-build cars of its own and specialise in what it's good at- consultancy and specialist development for other manufacturers.
spot on.I hope Lotus do get an assist but I'm surprised VAG would have any time for them. They are currently getting chewed by analysts for having too many brands and an additional one would hardly help. When you have Lambo, Bug, Bentley and Porsche why in the name of god would you need Lotus as yet another sports brand (and yes I know Seat could also be a sports brand)?? The other problem is that companies like VAG will also have little time for the "Engineered by Lotus" tag - they have teams of absolute geniuses already. No I reckon only a company with a ropy reputation or none at all would benefit..... so China it is then.
Tuna said:
All I see here is two years into a five year plan and people are disappointed that Lotus aren't out-selling Porsche.
It doesn't work like that.
And how anyone can whinge that new product is not visible yet when it never was suggested it would be, when Lotus have shown that all their development work is producing results, and they're still finding time to evolve the existing cars is beyond me.
Wrong thread. This is the whingeing bIt doesn't work like that.
And how anyone can whinge that new product is not visible yet when it never was suggested it would be, when Lotus have shown that all their development work is producing results, and they're still finding time to evolve the existing cars is beyond me.
ds thread. You're wasting your time talking common sense. Numeric said:
I hope Lotus do get an assist but I'm surprised VAG would have any time for them. They are currently getting chewed by analysts for having too many brands and an additional one would hardly help. When you have Lambo, Bug, Bentley and Porsche why in the name of god would you need Lotus as yet another sports brand (and yes I know Seat could also be a sports brand)?? The other problem is that companies like VAG will also have little time for the "Engineered by Lotus" tag - they have teams of absolute geniuses already. No I reckon only a company with a ropy reputation or none at all would benefit..... so China it is then.
i think there is a market gap in the VAG group, they have porker for medium cost sports cars and hard core cars and lambo for f'ing expensive f'ing mental carsthey have a raft of hot hatches (and no hot hatch owner will be interested in a 2 seater) and the TT which we can pretend does not exist
they have a large range of engines and other parts they could bolt onto the lotus bath tub to make low - medium cost 2 seater sports cars, including oil burners
its a possibility
Dave Hedgehog said:
they have a large range of engines and other parts they could bolt onto the lotus bath tub to make low - medium cost 2 seater sports cars, including oil burners
its a possibility
I think they'd develop their own platform if they wanted that or perhaps use a version of the Boxster. The whole point of VVA was that it's a relatively efficient way to produce low volume cars, I can't see it being viable for the kinds of numbers that VW would be after for any potential entry-level sportscar. I can't see VW worrying overly about the weight, why use aluminium when steel will do the job? its a possibility
Raitzi said:
But the new long term strategy of Lotus is to compete with Porsche and Ferrari at high price points?
which they should have done from the start with there superb racing pedigree and excellent engineering selling watered down high volume cars has weakened the brands image imo
something between TVR and Noble in terms of product and aiming for 1000+ units a year, was very possible
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Tuesday 3rd January 16:31
The only way I can see that Lotus would fit into VAG's empire is the analysis above, which dumbs the brand values down to a price range and a genre. VAG is about platform sharing with brand values grafted onto the platform in a fairly superficial way. I think Lotus's brand is too defined by values related to engineering rather than emotion to be treated the same way - I'm not really sure that, for example, you could convincingly take the small sports car platform developed for BlueSport/R4/sub-Boxster and slap a Lotus badge onto it in a way that convincingly differentiates it from its siblings.
Dave Hedgehog said:
Raitzi said:
But the new long term strategy of Lotus is to compete with Porsche and Ferrari at high price points?
which they should have done from the start with there superb racing pedigree and excellent engineering Gatefold said:
kambites said:
According to random pages on the internet, the M100 started at 18k in 1989; I think the MX5 started at about 14k?
They were more, Indirectly (cost-wise) competing against the MX-5 and MR2; but maybe the extra ~4k went towards 'brand cache'? Imagine that... Guys, I admire your love for Lotus. But for a non-English, you're missing the point.
I was in the market for a mid-engined daily driver... i compared the Elise SC vs. the Boxster S.
I chose the Boxster. I'm a petrolhead but there's no way the Elise can be as convenient for day-to-day use as an MX-5 or a Boxster is. Noisy and harsh, difficult to access (I'm 182 cm) and little luggage space.
The Exige is a great trackday car. But that's a very small market (and I can buy an used GT3 for the price of a new Exige).
Sorry to say that but... just ask anyone who's not from the UK: the Evora is very ugly. Just like the Europa was. And it costs like a Cayman S.
I only hope Caterham gets the rights to build the Elise/Exige.
They have a small business structure (and small fixed costs), they can afford to build small numbers.
I was in the market for a mid-engined daily driver... i compared the Elise SC vs. the Boxster S.
I chose the Boxster. I'm a petrolhead but there's no way the Elise can be as convenient for day-to-day use as an MX-5 or a Boxster is. Noisy and harsh, difficult to access (I'm 182 cm) and little luggage space.
The Exige is a great trackday car. But that's a very small market (and I can buy an used GT3 for the price of a new Exige).
Sorry to say that but... just ask anyone who's not from the UK: the Evora is very ugly. Just like the Europa was. And it costs like a Cayman S.
I only hope Caterham gets the rights to build the Elise/Exige.
They have a small business structure (and small fixed costs), they can afford to build small numbers.
Edited by Kamox on Tuesday 3rd January 18:09
Kamox said:
I was in the market for a mid-engined daily driver... i compared the Elise SC vs. the Boxster S.I chose the Boxster. I'm a petrolhead but there's no way the Elise can be as convenient day-to-day as an MX-5 or a Boxster is. Noisy, difficult to access (I'm 182 cm) and little luggage space.
Isn't it good, though, that you had the option of something different? I bought an Elise because the German alternatives are too sanitised and as a result too ordinary.Vauxhall should link with them again, VX220 is a bit of a classic, turbo 2L against the k series, easy to tune etc, they could make a new limited edition run of cars for Vauxhall.
Lotus versions of other Vauxhalls, RWD high performance cars in the mould of the legendary Lotus Carlton. Playing on the LC's heritage.
RWD V8 supercharged insignia anyone?
Lotus should be consulted on the replacement for the insignia, astra corsa etc, to have them designed from the off to be the best handling cars in their sector, with the everyday models just a suspension and bush kit from the sportier models to get their aftermarket business buoyed up with 2nd hand buyers wanting a cheaper alternative to top of the range whilst buying ex rep cars etc.
Getting Lotus to build the top models by hand.
Lotus versions of other Vauxhalls, RWD high performance cars in the mould of the legendary Lotus Carlton. Playing on the LC's heritage.
RWD V8 supercharged insignia anyone?
Lotus should be consulted on the replacement for the insignia, astra corsa etc, to have them designed from the off to be the best handling cars in their sector, with the everyday models just a suspension and bush kit from the sportier models to get their aftermarket business buoyed up with 2nd hand buyers wanting a cheaper alternative to top of the range whilst buying ex rep cars etc.
Getting Lotus to build the top models by hand.
Dave Hedgehog said:
too much nostalgia for lotus, the elan was nice, the esprit too complicated and unreliable, the elise is just an ugly slow bathtub for hairdressers, the exige is about passable if your a midget and can actually get in one and the new stuff is silly money, so you may as well get the better porker option
Sounds like a man who has never owned or driven one!Dave Hedgehog said:
i think there is a market gap in the VAG group, they have porker for medium cost sports cars and hard core cars and lambo for f'ing expensive f'ing mental cars
they have a raft of hot hatches (and no hot hatch owner will be interested in a 2 seater) and the TT which we can pretend does not exist
they have a large range of engines and other parts they could bolt onto the lotus bath tub to make low - medium cost 2 seater sports cars, including oil burners
its a possibility
Hedgehog may have made some obsure comments about elise earlier on but I think he's hit onto a point here.they have a raft of hot hatches (and no hot hatch owner will be interested in a 2 seater) and the TT which we can pretend does not exist
they have a large range of engines and other parts they could bolt onto the lotus bath tub to make low - medium cost 2 seater sports cars, including oil burners
its a possibility
I was also thinking VAG would be ideal. They have the funds and from a business strategy view point they could gain much more market share opening up a market niche for themselves compared to their focus on stealing from their competitors in their current market niches. Not saying I propose it is better to buy Lotus than to compete in their current market but I'm saying they should do both. Take Tescos, they continue to compete against the other big supermarket brands but focusing on their share price they have to come up with different ways on increasing profit so they expand into other markets hence insurance, banking, finance etc...
This also helps VAG by positioning Lotus so that they don't compete against Porsche. They already have specialist niche divisions such as Bentley so they could do the same with Lotus (except the other direction i.e. downgrading to differentiate from Porsche).
Cross sharing allows them to bring some Lotus handling image into their mainstream cars such as Seat to upgrade its sporting image.
The only downside is the arrogance of a successful German automobile company may have a dim view of its British engineered subsidiary - think BMW and Rover.
I would love to see Lotus succeed and I believe Behr is doing a good job to push Lotus in a different direction so that it does not end up like TVR. The elise has been very successful for Lotus but the poor management strategy in the past has let the company down.
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