Lotus To Be Offloaded by Proton?
Discussion
davepoth said:
Lotus badge back on the Seven I wonder? Fernandes has been playing a long and fairly canny game I think.
Dream on. Fernandes wants a cool sports car company and is trying to build Caterham into that. If his plans follow through, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Seven quietly sidelined and eventually killed off.I really, really doubt he would buy Lotus if they handed it to him on a plate right now. He admires their business model (and is copying it for the new Caterham), but Caterham are a much easier route into the market than Lotus.
Strider said:
And has anyone thought about the cost of strenghtening the dealer network so they can sell six models?
Yes, since the beginning. It was always a big issue for Lotus, their new cars will be 100% better but they need to sell them through dealerships that are 100% better too. Its WIP at the moment but plenty of thought has been given to dealserships.
Frimley111R said:
Yes, since the beginning. It was always a big issue for Lotus, their new cars will be 100% better but they need to sell them through dealerships that are 100% better too. Its WIP at the moment but plenty of thought has been given to dealserships.
Surely the obvious thing to do would be to offer franchises to Toyota dealerships? They have a damned good reputation for customer service and should at least already know the engines pretty well. Mind you, the quality control at Lotus might come as a shock to a Toyota dealer.
In fact, since they seem to be trying to get back into the sports car market, I wonder if Toyota might be in the market to buy Lotus if it was put up for sale?
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 4th January 09:55
BSC said:
Hedgerley said:
And as already mentioned, Bahar has brought a lot of very talented people into Lotus to deliver the plans, working alongside existing Lotus gurus such as Becker and Kershaw who retain key roles.
... and some have left. Roger Becker has retired. Caterham is building a development team for the new vehicle and this team is lead by Tony Shute of Elise fame. I wouldn't be surprised if other Ride & Handling gurus join Caterham in the future.kambites said:
Surely the obvious thing to do would be to offer franchises to Toyota dealerships? They have a damned good reputation for customer service and should at least already know the engines pretty well.
Mind you, the quality control at Lotus might come as a shock to a Toyota dealer.
In fact, since they seem to be trying to get back into the sports car market, I wonder if Toyota might be in the market to buy Lotus if it was put up for sale?
It would certainly make sense, especially as Toyota's other major sporting partner (Subaru) is at the other end of the scale to Lotus.Mind you, the quality control at Lotus might come as a shock to a Toyota dealer.
In fact, since they seem to be trying to get back into the sports car market, I wonder if Toyota might be in the market to buy Lotus if it was put up for sale?
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 4th January 09:55
Toyota square up to VAG in so many other areas. They could make Lotus their equivalent of Porsche or Lamborghini in this respect.
Oliver Winterbottom always thought Toyota would end up buying them out and was surprised when General Motors rocked up. He still reckons they'd work well together (Lotus and Toyota).
Looking at it from a very highly inexperienced point of view with regard to lotus or any other product in comparison.....
2 options where lotus will make a huge impact for the new buyers and in return get a lot of financial and sales support.
1. toyota: QC & dealer facilities for Lotus internationally and large budgets. Lotus consultancy and tuning for Toyota.
2. JLR: The new aspirational JLR brand worldwide will allow easy access to premium segment for Lotus along with development funding. JLR can use Lotus consultancy for their products which will only make their product line even better. A British joint venture!
2 options where lotus will make a huge impact for the new buyers and in return get a lot of financial and sales support.
1. toyota: QC & dealer facilities for Lotus internationally and large budgets. Lotus consultancy and tuning for Toyota.
2. JLR: The new aspirational JLR brand worldwide will allow easy access to premium segment for Lotus along with development funding. JLR can use Lotus consultancy for their products which will only make their product line even better. A British joint venture!
bobbylondonuk said:
2. JLR: The new aspirational JLR brand worldwide will allow easy access to premium segment for Lotus along with development funding. JLR can use Lotus consultancy for their products which will only make their product line even better. A British joint venture!
JLLR - what a line-up that would be 
Historically there even lurks a tenuous connection between Jaguar and Lotus via Coventry Climax as well as the more recent Omnivore collaboration.Each part would have its own distinct market segment, so no problems there unlike the VW suggestions. JLR brings the quality control and luxury experience to the table, Lotus brings their chassis experience. Dealerships already in place to appeal to the coffee and biscuits connoisseurs as an added bonus.
With the JLR brands and their positioning in the luxury segment, Lotus reaching up to the Porsche market isn't quite the leap of faith in customer perceptions as it currently stands. The idea of adding lightness isn't unfamiliar to Jaguar either with their use of aluminium bodied cars.
I'm struggling to see a downside tbh. The sportscar market covered all the way from nimble and lightweight, through GT cars and on up to supercars, with off road covered as well.
I can't see Tata putting an offer in just yet though - far better to wait until millions have been pumped in developing the cars, then buy Lotus just as they hit the production line. It worked well for them that way when buying from Ford.
I can but dream
The problem with the low volume sportscar market, is the unrealistic price of their products.Lotus prices have gradually risen over the years and we are now looking at £60K + for an Evora.
The obvious problem is that the customers who would like these cars, can't afford them and the customers who can afford them, don't want them.
I appreciate the economy of scale, in that for a small manufacturer R&D costs have to be covered by the numbers of vehicles sold. But there comes a time when the numbers no longer add up.Lotus should stick to building low cost lightweight sportscars with a price the average enthusiast can afford.
The obvious problem is that the customers who would like these cars, can't afford them and the customers who can afford them, don't want them.
I appreciate the economy of scale, in that for a small manufacturer R&D costs have to be covered by the numbers of vehicles sold. But there comes a time when the numbers no longer add up.Lotus should stick to building low cost lightweight sportscars with a price the average enthusiast can afford.
Twincam16 said:
Roger Becker's son IIRC works there. I really wouldn't be surprised if RB passed on most of what he knows and is only a phone call away to fill in any blanks.
I was not authorised to tell the details.Adding all the facts I reckon the new car from Caterham, a front-engined, rear-drive roadster with an composite chassis and roughly 200 bhp will be awesome if the body design is good.
P7ULG said:
The problem with the low volume sportscar market, is the unrealistic price of their products.Lotus prices have gradually risen over the years and we are now looking at £60K + for an Evora.
The obvious problem is that the customers who would like these cars, can't afford them and the customers who can afford them, don't want them.
I appreciate the economy of scale, in that for a small manufacturer R&D costs have to be covered by the numbers of vehicles sold. But there comes a time when the numbers no longer add up.Lotus should stick to building low cost lightweight sportscars with a price the average enthusiast can afford.
How much was an Excel when it was in production?The obvious problem is that the customers who would like these cars, can't afford them and the customers who can afford them, don't want them.
I appreciate the economy of scale, in that for a small manufacturer R&D costs have to be covered by the numbers of vehicles sold. But there comes a time when the numbers no longer add up.Lotus should stick to building low cost lightweight sportscars with a price the average enthusiast can afford.
Lotus lost money making the 'cheap' Elise. Why would any business continue with that?
otolith said:
Isn't it good, though, that you had the option of something different? I bought an Elise because the German alternatives are too sanitised and as a result too ordinary.
Sure! But with the Elise/Exige they aim for very particular clients who can accept the limitations of a car like that, for the sake of sensations and feedback which is hard to find in modern cars. It's a small market and you've to size the company for that.I've driven many time the Elise, I spent an hour behind the steering wheel of a 2-11 in Imola, i really like Lotus and its approach to sport cars. But I don't deny their flaws: high prices for what's offered (all the lineup, except maybe the new Exige S), very dull design on some cars (Evora, Europa but I think that's a common problem in England nowadays, just look at the McLaren MP-12C... what the hell... gimme back the '60s designers), cronic flaws (poor gear lever precision, for instance).
Lotus is not able to sell their (good but not perfect) cars at reasonable prices. And still, they can't make a profit.
This means poor management.
As I keep saying on these threads you need to understand the Malaysian mind set and the politics, it will be sold off following hte next election in Malaysia, which will be in the next few months, and Proton will be looking for a someone to invest technology shortly thereafter.
Proton have done nothing with Lotus, except for put the badge on a few 1600cc Satria's.
As for all the new models that lOtushave 'anounced' again, you need to undertand Proton's mind set, history and position in its domestic market.
Proton have done nothing with Lotus, except for put the badge on a few 1600cc Satria's.
As for all the new models that lOtushave 'anounced' again, you need to undertand Proton's mind set, history and position in its domestic market.
P7ULG said:
The problem with the low volume sportscar market, is the unrealistic price of their products.Lotus prices have gradually risen over the years and we are now looking at £60K + for an Evora.
The obvious problem is that the customers who would like these cars, can't afford them and the customers who can afford them, don't want them.
I appreciate the economy of scale, in that for a small manufacturer R&D costs have to be covered by the numbers of vehicles sold. But there comes a time when the numbers no longer add up.Lotus should stick to building low cost lightweight sportscars with a price the average enthusiast can afford.
Unrealistic prices ? The obvious problem is that the customers who would like these cars, can't afford them and the customers who can afford them, don't want them.
I appreciate the economy of scale, in that for a small manufacturer R&D costs have to be covered by the numbers of vehicles sold. But there comes a time when the numbers no longer add up.Lotus should stick to building low cost lightweight sportscars with a price the average enthusiast can afford.
Just look at some of the other low volume car manufacturers prices
Aerial Atom V8 £150,000
Morgan Roadster Sport £ 43,500 for a basic car
Tesla Roadster £86,950
Noble M12 £49,950
So the Evora, being a hand built, low volume car is quite competitively priced car, Even the Exige 240R was less than £45 K, the new Exige S price list has yet to be released but for Banzai performance it's going to be competitively priced.
Low volume, cheap cars no longer exist, there is no profit margin in them. The basic Elise was £20K back in 1996, The base model now is only £28,500
Edited by Monkey boy 1 on Thursday 5th January 21:43
Monkey boy 1 said:
Unrealistic prices ?
Just look at some of the other low volume car manufacturers prices
Aerial Atom V8 £150,000
Morgan Roadster Sport £ 43,500 for a basic car
Tesla Roadster £86,950
Noble M12 £49,950
So the Evora, being a hand built, low volume car is quite competitively priced car, Even the Exige 240R was less than £45 K, the new Exige S price list has yet to be released but for Banzai performance it's going to be competitively priced.
Low volume, cheap cars no longer exist, there is no profit margin in them. The basic Elise was £20K back in 1996, The base model now is only £28,500
Those prices are unrealistic for 99.5 % of car buyers.Just look at some of the other low volume car manufacturers prices
Aerial Atom V8 £150,000
Morgan Roadster Sport £ 43,500 for a basic car
Tesla Roadster £86,950
Noble M12 £49,950
So the Evora, being a hand built, low volume car is quite competitively priced car, Even the Exige 240R was less than £45 K, the new Exige S price list has yet to be released but for Banzai performance it's going to be competitively priced.
Low volume, cheap cars no longer exist, there is no profit margin in them. The basic Elise was £20K back in 1996, The base model now is only £28,500
Edited by Monkey boy 1 on Thursday 5th January 21:43
This idea that people should just shut up , put up with and pay up any price asked is fantasy land, business never has worked that way.
Nowadays hand built means they cannot afford the machines to build to greater accuracy and the result is inferior.
From here sales will be much harder to come ,business failure is now all around us.
Sports car makers if they are running a commercial enterprise need to re-evaluate what the minimum core requirements of their car are , and find far cheaper ways of sourcing them. It probably means making smaller more basic cars to move back in to the range of sufficient customer affordability.
In 1970 lotus were selling 5000 cars a year they were practical vehicles people could get in and out of at prices where sufficient demand existed.
The trouble started in 1974 when the scrapped the entire model range at a stroke went for a 3 car range of much bigger heavier cars and 4 seaters at 3 times the price of what went before, it turned a profitable company in to a regular loss maker struggling from one new owner to the next. They jettisoned their unique selling factor and have remained unfocused since.
Dave Hedgehog said:
too much nostalgia for lotus, the elan was nice, the esprit too complicated and unreliable, the elise is just an ugly slow bathtub for hairdressers, the exige is about passable if your a midget and can actually get in one and the new stuff is silly money, so you may as well get the better porker option
Load of s
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