Lotus To Be Offloaded by Proton?
Discussion
kambites said:
CDP said:
Airbags aren't very heavy. I doubt the pair add much more than 5 or 6 kilograms to the car.
I doubt they cost much these days either; unless you need to replace one that is...
Hmm, the one I recently took out of our Punto was a good 5 or 6kg on its own. I doubt they cost much these days either; unless you need to replace one that is...
And yes, I don't know the trade cost. I just know they cost a bloody fortune if you want to buy them.
Even if the pair were 12kg it's annoying but not the greatest burden on a car.
You get a couple in the cheapest of city cars so they can't cost much. The manufacturers have seized the chance to rip us off on replacement airbags and electronics while the government has just let it happen.
Does anyone actually ever replace air-bags? Usually the air bags firing is enough to write a car off and I don't know anyone who's actually bothered to replace them because they've hit their EOL date. I'm quite surprised that manufacturers don't turn on the air-bag light when they reach EOL, but they don't seem to.
kambites said:
Does anyone actually ever replace air-bags? Usually the air bags firing is enough to write a car off and I don't know anyone who's actually bothered to replace them because they've hit their EOL date. I'm quite surprised that manufacturers don't turn on the air-bag light when they reach EOL, but they don't seem to.
I'm surprised the EU hasn't made it illegal to drive a car with an "expired" bag yet...CDP said:
I'm surprised the EU hasn't made it illegal to drive a car with an "expired" bag yet...
Hard to enforce if the car doesn't tell you, since they're usually covered by something. Of course if a manufacturer was to make it light the SRS warning, the car would fail its MoT with the new rules coming in next year. Arthur Jackson said:
6fire said:
And to be honest, I'd rather a car without them. Hell, in a world where you can still choose to ride a motorbike, I see no reason why it isn't a valid choice to own a modern car without any secondary safety systems or driver aids.
Build one! It's entirely feasible. 
Cheap cars are a product of volume sales. If you all want Lotus to build a cheap sports car then Lotus need to sell to the masses, which means a heavily compromised car. Either that or accept that Lotus will be a small volume, small scale operation i.e. Ginetta sized.
Given who Dany B has employed and the investment he's gathered I seriously doubt Lotus has 'small scale' in its plans.
The cars will be expensive, 'targeted' and marketed.
Wasn't the OP more about the financial market getting gittery? Personnally, I think its a case of the emperors new clothes - at last this absurd plan of Bahar's is being seen through.
Too many new cars. Pissing on the Chapman legacy. Losing track of the 'purpose' of Lotus and where it fits into the specialist car buyers mindset. Its a bloody poor strategy and deserves derision.
I like Lotus, its a very special company both historically and technically. It takes a unique singular vision to keep something like Lotus alive and some wiz kid from Ferrari's marketting machine is not it.
Given who Dany B has employed and the investment he's gathered I seriously doubt Lotus has 'small scale' in its plans.
The cars will be expensive, 'targeted' and marketed.
Wasn't the OP more about the financial market getting gittery? Personnally, I think its a case of the emperors new clothes - at last this absurd plan of Bahar's is being seen through.
Too many new cars. Pissing on the Chapman legacy. Losing track of the 'purpose' of Lotus and where it fits into the specialist car buyers mindset. Its a bloody poor strategy and deserves derision.
I like Lotus, its a very special company both historically and technically. It takes a unique singular vision to keep something like Lotus alive and some wiz kid from Ferrari's marketting machine is not it.
Edited by fatbutt on Friday 30th December 15:50
fatbutt said:
Cheap cars are a product of volume sales. If you all want Lotus to build a cheap sports car then Lotus need to sell to the masses, which means a heavily compromised car. Either that or accept that Lotus will be a small volume, small scale operation i.e. Ginetta sized.
Given who Dany B has employed and the investment he's gathered I seriously doubt Lotus has 'small scale' in its plans.
The cars will be expensive, 'targeted' and marketed.
Wasn't the OP more about the financial market getting gittery? Personnally, I think its a case of the emperors new clothes - at last this absurd plan of Bahar's is being seen through.
Too many new cars. Pissing on the Chapman legacy. Losing track of the 'purpose' of Lotus and where it fits into the specialist car buyers mindset. Its a bloody poor strategy and deserves derision.
I like Lotus, its a very special company both historically and technically. It takes a unique singular vision to keep something like Lotus alive and some wiz kid from Ferrari's marketting machine is not it.
Says it all really.Given who Dany B has employed and the investment he's gathered I seriously doubt Lotus has 'small scale' in its plans.
The cars will be expensive, 'targeted' and marketed.
Wasn't the OP more about the financial market getting gittery? Personnally, I think its a case of the emperors new clothes - at last this absurd plan of Bahar's is being seen through.
Too many new cars. Pissing on the Chapman legacy. Losing track of the 'purpose' of Lotus and where it fits into the specialist car buyers mindset. Its a bloody poor strategy and deserves derision.
I like Lotus, its a very special company both historically and technically. It takes a unique singular vision to keep something like Lotus alive and some wiz kid from Ferrari's marketting machine is not it.
Edited by fatbutt on Friday 30th December 15:50
fatbutt said:
Cheap cars are a product of volume sales. If you all want Lotus to build a cheap sports car then Lotus need to sell to the masses, which means a heavily compromised car. Either that or accept that Lotus will be a small volume, small scale operation i.e. Ginetta sized.
My guess is Lotus as a manufacturer is currently somehow "in between" size wise. Not a kit car shop anymore, but not big enough and lacking organization to really shift volumes. They do all the EU + US homologation stuff to the cars with all of the costs, but actually fail to sell that many overseas for this to make sense.Eg. looking at the German dealer network, I see 7 shops on the map. Two of these are the same owner and very close together, one is defunct. That leaves us with 5 addresses apparently randomly located in Germany. Nothing in Berlin, nothing in Hamburg, nothing in Munich -- which is shocking since that is where the money is.
There is also no official German website, the "car configurators" on the dealer sites do not work, the brochures available are outdated and only one dealer has a seemingly current pricelist available for download.
IMVHO they should have worked on some basics first before spending money on Biss Sweatz. I just can't believe there is no money to be made with the Elise. Price it at 30k € max and work on basic marketing + dealer network in Europe.
The OP links to an article where a clueless investor is trying to talk up a situation where other clueless investors can make a killing. Phrases like "Lotus, which has struggled to compete against Porsche" completely misrepresent the position they have been occupying in the market. This is city boy talk, hoping for a sale they can profit from.
As for expensive, 'targeted' and marketed - how would you describe the 458, or the MP4-12C? I'd rather targeted and marketed than ill-considered and undersold.
fatbutt said:
Cheap cars are a product of volume sales. If you all want Lotus to build a cheap sports car then Lotus need to sell to the masses, which means a heavily compromised car. Either that or accept that Lotus will be a small volume, small scale operation i.e. Ginetta sized.
Agreed.fatbutt said:
Given who Dany B has employed and the investment he's gathered I seriously doubt Lotus has 'small scale' in its plans.
The cars will be expensive, 'targeted' and marketed.
Wasn't the OP more about the financial market getting gittery? Personnally, I think its a case of the emperors new clothes - at last this absurd plan of Bahar's is being seen through.
Too many new cars. Pissing on the Chapman legacy. Losing track of the 'purpose' of Lotus and where it fits into the specialist car buyers mindset. Its a bloody poor strategy and deserves derision.
This is where I disagree. Lotus have historically relied on too few cars - or even just a single model to prop up the company. It's kept them stuck in a corner and occasionally driven them to the brink. Bahar isn't pissing on the Chapman legacy - (a) that's misunderstanding how Chapman worked. He wasn't some single minded purist. and (b) future Lotus' are being designed with just the same principles as they always were.The cars will be expensive, 'targeted' and marketed.
Wasn't the OP more about the financial market getting gittery? Personnally, I think its a case of the emperors new clothes - at last this absurd plan of Bahar's is being seen through.
Too many new cars. Pissing on the Chapman legacy. Losing track of the 'purpose' of Lotus and where it fits into the specialist car buyers mindset. Its a bloody poor strategy and deserves derision.
As for expensive, 'targeted' and marketed - how would you describe the 458, or the MP4-12C? I'd rather targeted and marketed than ill-considered and undersold.
fatbutt said:
I like Lotus, its a very special company both historically and technically. It takes a unique singular vision to keep something like Lotus alive and some wiz kid from Ferrari's marketting machine is not it.
In the current market, Lotus couldn't continue being 'technically special' without having someone with a strong concept to bring it all together. Bahar may have been the very public face of Lotus' turnaround, but there's a whole iceberg under the surface that isn't visible. At this stage in the plan, Proton would be very stupid not to hold on and see things through. Tuna said:
fatbutt said:
Cheap cars are a product of volume sales. If you all want Lotus to build a cheap sports car then Lotus need to sell to the masses, which means a heavily compromised car. Either that or accept that Lotus will be a small volume, small scale operation i.e. Ginetta sized.
Agreed. The more I read about the progress Bahar is making, the more I am convinced he might just do it. Recent updates in Autocar and the latest Evo magazine are very encouraging. Two years into the five year plan all targets have been met and the new model plans remain on track. Updates to existing models look to be very promising and the new Exige V6 looks to be a winner - certainly my local dealer is very happy with the orders/deposits received so far and the initial drive by Evo (albeit as part of the durability testing) had them salivating. Ditto with the their first drive of the Evora GTE.
Investment into facilities at Hethel is very impressive, from new production facilities (for the Esprit due in 2013), to the new trim shop, design studios (each of the 6 new models has its own dedicated facility, each as big as the entire Lotus design studio when Bahar arrived) track upgrades, motorsport and so on. You can't fault their ambition nor the money already invested.
And as already mentioned, Bahar has brought a lot of very talented people into Lotus to deliver the plans, working alongside existing Lotus gurus such as Becker and Kershaw who retain key roles.
Proton continue to support the plans and have just extended Bahar's contract through to 2016. He also has an equity stake in the company so it in his own interests to make it work rather than bale out too early.
The global economic situation could yet undo the investment required and who knows what the Malaysian government might decide, but I believe Proton will remain fully onside and continue to support Lotus to the best of their ability.
Besides, who listens to investment bankers these days....
Investment into facilities at Hethel is very impressive, from new production facilities (for the Esprit due in 2013), to the new trim shop, design studios (each of the 6 new models has its own dedicated facility, each as big as the entire Lotus design studio when Bahar arrived) track upgrades, motorsport and so on. You can't fault their ambition nor the money already invested.
And as already mentioned, Bahar has brought a lot of very talented people into Lotus to deliver the plans, working alongside existing Lotus gurus such as Becker and Kershaw who retain key roles.
Proton continue to support the plans and have just extended Bahar's contract through to 2016. He also has an equity stake in the company so it in his own interests to make it work rather than bale out too early.
The global economic situation could yet undo the investment required and who knows what the Malaysian government might decide, but I believe Proton will remain fully onside and continue to support Lotus to the best of their ability.
Besides, who listens to investment bankers these days....
Edited by Hedgerley on Tuesday 3rd January 11:45
Kolbenkopp said:
Eg. looking at the German dealer network, I see 7 shops on the map. Two of these are the same owner and very close together, one is defunct. That leaves us with 5 addresses apparently randomly located in Germany. Nothing in Berlin, nothing in Hamburg, nothing in Munich -- which is shocking since that is where the money is.
There is also no official German website, the "car configurators" on the dealer sites do not work, the brochures available are outdated and only one dealer has a seemingly current pricelist available for download.
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Agreed. If you look at the sales figures in Auto, Motor & Sport then the Lotus figures are a joke (don't think they sold more than a 100 in 2011). For the size of the market (and th German's weath and enthusiasm for cars) that is a joke. Even worse, when AM&S do test Lotuses the reviews are generally pretty good (at least the ones I have read). However, I am not sure the lack of sales is because there is no investment in dealerships or there are no dealerships because prior investment has failed and no-one wants to try to sell them. Either way a pretty poor showing.There is also no official German website, the "car configurators" on the dealer sites do not work, the brochures available are outdated and only one dealer has a seemingly current pricelist available for download.
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With reference to other, earlier comments: the Elise was brilliant when it came out (20 years ago?) but Lotus didn't seem to build upon it and it is a niche product, although great if that is what you are looking for.
New plans seem like wishful thinking to me and I would be very surprised if they work (even if Proton or a new owner provide the funding). In the luxury/sport's car market, brand is (almost) everything and Lotus currently doesn't have the right image. Even if their planned, new cars are much better than the opposition that is no guarantee of sales (objectively the GTR is half the price and twice the car of most rivals but that isn't stopping people buying 911s, M3s, etc).
Kolbenkopp said:
That leaves us with 5 addresses apparently randomly located in Germany. Nothing in Berlin, nothing in Hamburg, nothing in Munich -- which is shocking since that is where the money is.
There is also no official German website, the "car configurators" on the dealer sites do not work, the brochures available are outdated and only one dealer has a seemingly current pricelist available for download.
work on basic marketing + dealer network in Europe.
This and a five year limited guarantee.There is also no official German website, the "car configurators" on the dealer sites do not work, the brochures available are outdated and only one dealer has a seemingly current pricelist available for download.
work on basic marketing + dealer network in Europe.
There have been rumours over the Xmas week on other sites that VAG group have already expressed an interest. Whoever it is they will have to work hard to repair the brands image, which has taken a knock recently under Mr Behr's stewardship. Long term I think Lotus will be fine but five cars registered in September, three from one dealer doesn't bode well.
But if a dutchman with wavey hair, a blue blazer and a 'business plan' comes knocking for gawds sake Lotus don't let him in!
But if a dutchman with wavey hair, a blue blazer and a 'business plan' comes knocking for gawds sake Lotus don't let him in!
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