RE: Detroit show: Porsche 911 Cabriolet
Discussion
pistonpie said:
Skater12 said:
It's not even like porsche has much to lose, given that emerging markets in the middle east and asia will be huge for this new car regardless of how it would look. Chinese businessmen etc would buy a 911 for the badge alone.
your point being...? I personally think it looks great, one of the best looking 911s yetI do like the way it looks, I do like the 911 shape, I do like Porsche.
I am however getting bored of the generic design.
One of the biggest names in the motoring world, with a Huge budget, and technical prowess, but they seem to lack imagination.
I agree, it is a formula that has worked and will continue to work for them, but surely they can start building cars that make people say "wow, that looks awesome", rather than "that's quite nice looking".
Skater12 said:
pistonpie said:
Skater12 said:
It's not even like porsche has much to lose, given that emerging markets in the middle east and asia will be huge for this new car regardless of how it would look. Chinese businessmen etc would buy a 911 for the badge alone.
your point being...? I personally think it looks great, one of the best looking 911s yetI do like the way it looks, I do like the 911 shape, I do like Porsche.
I am however getting bored of the generic design.
One of the biggest names in the motoring world, with a Huge budget, and technical prowess, but they seem to lack imagination.
I agree, it is a formula that has worked and will continue to work for them, but surely they can start building cars that make people say "wow, that looks awesome", rather than "that's quite nice looking".
Garlick said:
They can't win methinks.
I like how the same comments are trotted out for the release of the cabrio. Which looks, unsurprisingly, like the coupe without a roof. Yet people will still post about how unadventurous the styling is. Most cabrios tend to look fairly similar to the coupe equivalent 
FWIW I think the actual roof makes it look very swoopy and more cohesive than the 997.
SWoll said:
It's seems to have worked very well for Porsche for the last 50 years or so.
If I recall correctly, it actually wasn't working well for Porsche at one stage thus the design and introduction of the 928. And what saved Porsche in it's dark days was the 924 (VW/Audi) & 944 models and then the Boxster along with the Cayenne (VW/Audi). Anyway, I don't want to drag the thread away off on a different tangent but worth remembering that 911 was almost at one time causing Porsche's downfall. Of course I stand to be corrected on my comment but that's the way I remember it. I'm not sure it's really viable to change the design. This is my theory (and of course is mostly personal opinion):
The 911 is a fundamentally badly proportioned car - it's too tall for its length and the wheelbase is too short. As it is, everyone has got so used to the shape that they like it. It's a design icon so the poor proportions just portray a sense of 911ness rather than a sense of ugliness.
If they're going to keep the engine in the rear, it's got to have a long rear overhang and a rather bulbous rear end, which is part of the problem. If they move the engine but want to keep it a 2+2 it would probably have to go in the front which would produce a substantially longer car which will impact agility and usability. Similarly, if they lower the roof-line much, it will impact the space inside the car so they'd have to make it longer to compensate, which would be bad.
This leaves them in a situation where they've got to keep the car's (fundamentally bad) proportions for packaging reasons. If they tried to tack a new design onto them, I think it would just look plain ugly.
In other words, I think the fact that the 911 is generally the best car in its class and the fact that they can't change the design are very closely linked. I do still wish that their other cars didn't look quiet so similar though.
The 911 is a fundamentally badly proportioned car - it's too tall for its length and the wheelbase is too short. As it is, everyone has got so used to the shape that they like it. It's a design icon so the poor proportions just portray a sense of 911ness rather than a sense of ugliness.
If they're going to keep the engine in the rear, it's got to have a long rear overhang and a rather bulbous rear end, which is part of the problem. If they move the engine but want to keep it a 2+2 it would probably have to go in the front which would produce a substantially longer car which will impact agility and usability. Similarly, if they lower the roof-line much, it will impact the space inside the car so they'd have to make it longer to compensate, which would be bad.
This leaves them in a situation where they've got to keep the car's (fundamentally bad) proportions for packaging reasons. If they tried to tack a new design onto them, I think it would just look plain ugly.
In other words, I think the fact that the 911 is generally the best car in its class and the fact that they can't change the design are very closely linked. I do still wish that their other cars didn't look quiet so similar though.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 10th January 12:47
Porsche have limited themselves by (raking in the cash) with the car name: 911
And since they've managed to make fantatsic products they've chosen to replicate this form with the Boxster..ie make a great car, well styled, timeless in many ways, then tinker with it for generations.
Ferrari in the mean time have taken the 308/328, then 348/355, the 360/430 then 458 and with every other name change come up with something new... as long as the Ferrari is rakish and red and drives with 'emotion' and 'flare' it wins
As long as the 911 is 911 shaped and drives with precision and 'feel' it wins
With their buckets of cash Porsche HAVE intorduced new lines, but sadly that has only been to make even more money, with no hint of a 'wow' (Cayenne/Panamera - soon Cajun and Pana-junior) I find this direction sad too...their heritage leaves many doors open for nicer niches's (924/944/968,928, 914, 356 etc etc)
The 918 being the exception.
And since they've managed to make fantatsic products they've chosen to replicate this form with the Boxster..ie make a great car, well styled, timeless in many ways, then tinker with it for generations.
Ferrari in the mean time have taken the 308/328, then 348/355, the 360/430 then 458 and with every other name change come up with something new... as long as the Ferrari is rakish and red and drives with 'emotion' and 'flare' it wins
As long as the 911 is 911 shaped and drives with precision and 'feel' it wins
With their buckets of cash Porsche HAVE intorduced new lines, but sadly that has only been to make even more money, with no hint of a 'wow' (Cayenne/Panamera - soon Cajun and Pana-junior) I find this direction sad too...their heritage leaves many doors open for nicer niches's (924/944/968,928, 914, 356 etc etc)
The 918 being the exception.
kambites said:
I'm not sure it's really viable to change the design. This is my theory (and of course is mostly personal opinion):
The 911 is a fundamentally badly proportioned car - it's too tall for its length and the wheelbase is too short. As it is, everyone has got so used to the shape that they like it. It's a design icon so the poor proportions just portray a sense of 911ness rather than a sense of ugliness.
that has been dealt with, with this iteration... longer wheelbase, shorter overhangs...The 911 is a fundamentally badly proportioned car - it's too tall for its length and the wheelbase is too short. As it is, everyone has got so used to the shape that they like it. It's a design icon so the poor proportions just portray a sense of 911ness rather than a sense of ugliness.
Agoogy said:
that has been dealt with, with this iteration... longer wheelbase, shorter overhangs...
I know, and I think it's lower too, but it's still tall with a short wheelbase and long overhangs compared to what would usually be considered to be its competition. If you tried to put an angular "modern supercar" type design on onto even the 991's proportions, I think it would look ridiculous. SWoll said:
Skater12 said:
On your comments about JC, i dont quote anyone, Jeremy Clarkson, Jesus Christ, Jackie Chan or otherwise.
Your STD line was a direct quote from Mr Clarkson I believe, as I'm sure you are aware.Actually no, I dont pay that much attention to what Mr Clarkson says, and certainly wouldnt want to quote him.
Skater12 said:
Dont get me wrong, I'd love to own one, but for the money i'd go for an older well looked after car, because the new one asthetically dosnt justify spending more.
The newer one doesn't have to justify spending more with it's aesthetics, that's never been what the 911 is about. I would be willing to guarantee it justifies itself in the way it drives etc. which is far more important.Regardless of the technical advances of this model, I'm just bored of the appearance, that's my whole, and only point.
Skater12 said:
And the reason we cant come up with an original comment about this car, is because the same things were said about the last "new" 911 launch, and the one before that.
If you are aware that the topic of the 911's styling has been discussed at length time and time again on PH then why trot out the same tired old comments? We all know it hasn't changed much in the way it looks, that's the whole point of the 911. Evolution rather than revolution. It's seems to have worked very well for Porsche for the last 50 years or so.Skater12 said:
Some "tweaks", not radical changes are required, that's all.
At present they seem to visually change very little, whilst managing to physically change every part.
I think it looks different, both inside and out. Go to a showroom and look at one up close next to a 997 and have a sit inside.At present they seem to visually change very little, whilst managing to physically change every part.
Tight fabric roof looks good.
Agoogy said:
Skater12 said:
pistonpie said:
Skater12 said:
It's not even like porsche has much to lose, given that emerging markets in the middle east and asia will be huge for this new car regardless of how it would look. Chinese businessmen etc would buy a 911 for the badge alone.
your point being...? I personally think it looks great, one of the best looking 911s yetI do like the way it looks, I do like the 911 shape, I do like Porsche.
I am however getting bored of the generic design.
One of the biggest names in the motoring world, with a Huge budget, and technical prowess, but they seem to lack imagination.
I agree, it is a formula that has worked and will continue to work for them, but surely they can start building cars that make people say "wow, that looks awesome", rather than "that's quite nice looking".
The Panamera is just a big 4 door 911, and the Cayenne is too much like a VW Toe-rag with Porsche lights and grill etc bolted on.
I'd like to see Porsche do what Aston Martin did when the introduced the DB9, by orrering a new direction in design.
Ferrari have done it more recently, with the 458, the 599 and the FF all sharing Family looks, while being up to date and still "veru Ferrari".
Skater12 said:
MRCC said:
I completely accept the comments about Porsche moving on and away from the shackles of the 911, but if a 911 is your bag, I have to say I think the 991 is the best looking one ever and that includes the glorious 993 too.
Regards,
Mr. C C.
I agree. If you HAVE to have one, then the current 991 is the best looking 911 for the past 20 or so years.Regards,
Mr. C C.
But saying that is like deciding between which sexually transmitted disease you'd rather have. A bit of the clap, or full blown Aids!
Skater12 said:
Agoogy said:
Skater12 said:
pistonpie said:
Skater12 said:
It's not even like porsche has much to lose, given that emerging markets in the middle east and asia will be huge for this new car regardless of how it would look. Chinese businessmen etc would buy a 911 for the badge alone.
your point being...? I personally think it looks great, one of the best looking 911s yetI do like Porsche.
but surely they can start building cars that make people say "wow, that looks awesome", rather than "that's quite nice looking".
I'd like to see Porsche do what Aston Martin did when the introduced the DB9, by orrering a new direction in design.
Ferrari have done it more recently, with the 458, the 599 and the FF all sharing Family looks, while being up to date and still "veru Ferrari".
As for AM...ex 911 chief Ulrich Bez has taken Porsche 'model' with him to AM - hence lots of different AM's all look the same, lots of special editions and lots of press.
As for design direction change, the design language has changed quite a lot actually - compare 901/912/930/964/993/996 etc
compare 2012 line up with 1980, 1990, 2000 line up.
There is change, it's just their change doesn't match the change some people want. Porsche are evolution not revolution...spreading their evolutionary aesthetic thinly across 2 seater open tops to 2+2 coupes to SUVs and luxo-barges' does NOT help IMO, but there IS change.
Love this 911 nicest of the recent iterations I feel.
I think the 911 should stay, it's always a winner; people love it.
While I agree that Porsche could try making another car for people who don't like the 911 look. I'm not too sure where the car would fit in the range. Or what it would be. They have the Boxter and Cayman which are great, what would people want from Porsche? Another 80-100k model? Or a 100-150k 'proper' supercar?
I think the 911 should stay, it's always a winner; people love it.
While I agree that Porsche could try making another car for people who don't like the 911 look. I'm not too sure where the car would fit in the range. Or what it would be. They have the Boxter and Cayman which are great, what would people want from Porsche? Another 80-100k model? Or a 100-150k 'proper' supercar?
jimjim150 said:
Love this 911 nicest of the recent iterations I feel.
I think the 911 should stay, it's always a winner; people love it.
While I agree that Porsche could try making another car for people who don't like the 911 look. I'm not too sure where the car would fit in the range. Or what it would be. They have the Boxter and Cayman which are great, what would people want from Porsche? Another 80-100k model? Or a 100-150k 'proper' supercar?
£28k-£36k bracket please.... (356/914/924 market)I think the 911 should stay, it's always a winner; people love it.
While I agree that Porsche could try making another car for people who don't like the 911 look. I'm not too sure where the car would fit in the range. Or what it would be. They have the Boxter and Cayman which are great, what would people want from Porsche? Another 80-100k model? Or a 100-150k 'proper' supercar?
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